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1959 Tigress Question
#724271 02/04/18 6:29 pm
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I am working on a 1959 Tigress 2 cylinder, 12 volt scooter. The problem is the charging system. When I bring the rpm up, it shows a voltage increase from 12.3 volts to 12.7 volts max. If I turn the lights on, it maxes out at 11.5 volts. The battery is new and I checked the connections for loose wires. Does anyone have a good suggestion as to how I can figure out if my regulator is the fault or the alternator?

Thanks,

Doc


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Mostly Triumphs with a few BSA's a Norton, and two BMW's

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Re: 1959 Tigress Question
Doc_dup1 #724279 02/04/18 7:43 pm
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2-wire alternator with some sort of regulator?


I'd say first test the AC output from the alternator.

http://www.britbike.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/272018/1 There are other threads.


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Re: 1959 Tigress Question
triton thrasher #724285 02/04/18 8:18 pm
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.

TTs link is a good read
...


You can read the OPEN AC voltage coming right out of the stator.
This is a fairly poor test, as no work is being done...
The voltage can swing from from 20 to 50 volts

you can also hook the stator directly to one or more headlights and quessimate the
Lights brightness to the amount of power being produced

Or you can LOAD test the ac voltage coing right out of the stator.
This is the better to best test. As real wattage numbers under load are revealed .

A 100 watt (a $10 part.) ..or larger ··· one ohm load resistor ··· is used as a calibrated dummy load .
With the engine running off a battery
The alternator is run into this dummy load...(a heat sink )
The simple ac voltage reading at various rpms... is now... also the full AMPs reading.

Multiplying the voltage x the amps [or the square either ]
Will give you the true stator wattage output at any given rpm.
example : a 10 volt reading under a One ohm load equates to 100 watts of power


Re: 1959 Tigress Question
Doc_dup1 #724291 02/04/18 9:14 pm
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A 1959 machine is unlikely to have been 12V originally.
So we need to know what is in your charging system, say alternator and regulator.
Do these use an alternator as we would know it? or flywheel magneto/generator like Bantams etc?

Re: 1959 Tigress Question
Doc_dup1 #724296 02/04/18 10:07 pm
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There were 12 V electric start models, don't know if many were made. http://www.pdfmotomanual.com/index....;unique=3a011045c9e067513253ca131c68a7fc

Wired and regulated the same rather inferior way as 6 V models.

We don't know if Doc has an original 12 V Tigress.



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Re: 1959 Tigress Question
Doc_dup1 #724300 02/04/18 10:32 pm
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Thanks everyone, the advice is always appreciated. This is an electric start 12 volt scooter. It came with 2 six volt batteries and it has been converted to one 12 volt mounted at the rear. The regulator does not look like something that I am used to seeing on my 60's 650 bikes. The alternator has a single white/green wire and a ground. My guess is that the regulator is the problem, but I don't have a good replacement.

Doc


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Mostly Triumphs with a few BSA's a Norton, and two BMW's

Re: 1959 Tigress Question
Doc_dup1 #724302 02/04/18 10:51 pm
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There are cheap eBay Honda regulators you can try, but it's logical to test the alternator first.

It's unusual for an alternator AC lead to be connected to the frame. If someone has fitted a combined regulator/rectifier, the two alternator wires usually go to terminals on it.


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Re: 1959 Tigress Question
NickL #724345 02/05/18 8:08 am
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I dont get that one of the stator wires is grounded , do you mean one of the regulator wires ?

... And the mystery regulator , how many wires in... and how many out ?

Couldnt open TT's link, but from memory , the trigress used/uses a standard Lucas stator .
The rotor is Lucas too, but far from standard and used only in the 'scooter line' .
That said , there should be 2 or 3 wires emanating from the stator that emit an AC Signal.
If correctly connected to a modern rec/reg... You may find that you are back in business.
Also : You may have to dig around a bit to find if there is a third stator wire, clipped back or not connected
To the mystery regulator ?

.
.




Re: 1959 Tigress Question
Doc_dup1 #724350 02/05/18 10:08 am
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Hi Doc,

Firstly, regrettably, Quinten is back to posting his usual twaddle about electrics. frown

None of the wires from a 2- or 3-wire alternator stator should ever be "grounded". If the alternator on the bike is 2-wire and one wire is White/Green, the other's Green/Yellow? If so, it's a bog-standard '69-on Lucas RM21 (and a replacement for the original 3-wire alternator).

Both wires of any 2-wire alternator stator must be connected to the AC inputs of a rectifier or regulator/rectifier; when attached to a rectifier only, a Zener diode must also be connected for Volts/Amps regulation. If the stator wires are attached to something you don't recognise, it's non-standard and we could do with pictures.

Originally Posted by Doc_dup1
When I bring the rpm up, it shows a voltage increase from 12.3 volts to 12.7 volts max. If I turn the lights on, it maxes out at 11.5 volts.

You might be correct about alternator or regulator but the symptoms you describe are also if the original regulation wiring hasn't been disconnected. facepalm

I've downloaded the manual - including the wiring diagram - from "triton thrasher's" link; if you can't, pm me your e-mail addy and I'll send it over.

The following wires are all to do with the original Volts/Amps regulation; all should be disconnected or not present:-

. Any wire (White/Green?) between Lighting switch terminal #4 and stator White/Green on the reg./rec. or a rectifier AC terminal.

. Any wire (Black or Blue?) between Lighting switch terminal #5 (or #6) and Ignition switch terminal #18.

. Any wire (Green/Black?) between Lighting switch terminal #7 and stator Green/Black or Green/Yellow on the reg./rec. or a rectifier AC terminal.

. Any wire (Green/Yellow?) between Ignition switch terminal #16 (or #17) and stator Green/Yellow on the reg./rec. or a rectifier AC terminal.

If you're interested in how the original regulation worked and, if it's still connected, why it's causing the Volts readings you're seeing, here.

Hth.

Regards,

Re: 1959 Tigress Question
Doc_dup1 #724388 02/05/18 4:54 pm
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Thanks again folks. From what everyone is saying, it looks like this scooter has a lot of electrical issues. It was obviously converted to a single 12 volt battery from the original two 6 volt type. The battery was relocated to the rear of the body and that required new wiring. The regulator looks to be some after-market unit and the wiring quality is not the best. It believe that the best option for me is to just start over and re-wire the thing with some quality wire and connectors. The alternator is a puzzle. I can find one white with green wire that goes to the regulator. There is no green/white and green/yellow set that I am used to seeing on other bikes. The other wire from the alternator is attached to a terminal on the regulator that also includes a wire to ground. I do have an owners manual for the thing, but the wires on the scooter do not seem to match the colors that are shown on the diagram. All of this is unfortunate because the scooter itself is in remarkable, original condition. The paint and bodywork are perfect for the age of the scooter. I am just working on this for a friend and it is another case of "no good deed goes unpunished." The owner has a big collection of cars and motorcycles and I am sure that this scooter will ultimately end up as a non-rider, but both of us want to fix it correctly and ride it before that happens. Time for some more homework.

Doc


Doc

Mostly Triumphs with a few BSA's a Norton, and two BMW's

Re: 1959 Tigress Question
Doc_dup1 #724395 02/05/18 5:48 pm
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The single 12 V battery is sensible and not much of an alteration.

On a two-wire alternator, the colour of the leads shouldn't matter, as the wires are interchangeable.

Your regulator must (I think) have two terminals for alternator AC leads and also + and - outputs. One of the outputs can be a mounting stud. Maybe your problem is that earth lead (or the AC lead) is on the wrong regulator terminal.

Rewiring the bike is a lot of work when there may not be any difficult fault at all.


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Re: 1959 Tigress Question
Doc_dup1 #724397 02/05/18 5:59 pm
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Hi Doc,

Originally Posted by triton thrasher
Rewiring the bike is a lot of work when may not be any difficult fault at all.

+1.

Originally Posted by Doc_dup1
The other wire from the alternator is attached to a terminal on the regulator that also includes a wire to ground.

If you rewire, whatever else you do, don't duplicate this ... because there isn't any way it's correct. One check on any 2- or 3-wire alternator is resistance between each wire and "ground"; if you don't get MegaOhms (or 'infinite'), the stator is donald.

Original electrics were 'positive ground'. Then it's 'ok' (but bad practice) to connect DC +ve of a reg./rec. to the vehicle structure - i.e. 'ground'. But the alternator stator produces AC so it cannot ever be anything but totally wrong to connect one of the stator wires to 'ground'.

Originally Posted by Doc_dup1
The alternator is a puzzle. I can find one white with green wire that goes to the regulator. There is no green/white and green/yellow set that I am used to seeing on other bikes.

Uh-uh, the standard Lucas stator wire colours are White/Green or "Green/White", the second wire colour is Green/Yellow, only a 3-wire will also have Green/Black.

Nevertheless, two wires is two wires; on a Lucas or pattern stator, they can only be at opposite ends of the stator coils, so they can only join to two separate rectifier or reg./rec. terminals/wires.

The basics are really simple, don't overthink them. smile

Originally Posted by Doc_dup1
believe that the best option for me is to just start over and re-wire the thing with some quality wire and connectors.
unfortunate because the scooter itself is in remarkable, original condition.
I am just working on this for a friend

Modern metric-size wire in original Lucas insulation colour combos. and original-looking terminals that fit the modern wire are easily-available - if you haven't before, take a look at British Wiring.

If you want to go the trouble of making a scratch-built harness look 'original', original-looking sheathing is available.

A greater selection of wires, terminals and tools are available at lower prices from a couple of British suppliers (one of which supplies BW); despite the p&p, a large order from GB might be cheaper?

It's possible that a modern 12V battery will fit in the original battery space and still be able to power the electric starter.

If it'd help, I'd be happy to provide pointers to wiring upgrades that can be incorporated with little or no compromise to 'original looking'. smile

Hth.

Regards,

Re: 1959 Tigress Question
Doc_dup1 #724400 02/05/18 6:14 pm
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If it is desired to use the original battery boxes, you could have a 12 V battery in each, connected in parallel (+ to +, - to -).

12 V batteries are more "mainstream" than 6 V, nowadays. You may be able to buy 12 V batteries of better quality than 6 V.


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Re: 1959 Tigress Question
triton thrasher #724432 02/05/18 10:55 pm
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Like TT said ... the color of the stator wires doesn't matter... They are ac
Have you traced the 2 wires all the way back to the stator ?
If its an older unencapsulated 3 wire Style , a three wire into two wire conversion , for 12 volt operation
may have been made right on/at the stator output posts , where coil-mag-wire meets multistrand .
Or the 3rd wire just clipped back and the stator is only wired for partial output ?

If its encapsulated , sometimes " the 3wire into 2 wire conversion " is done right outside the potting,
You may not see this splice until you go and look for it.


The bike runs, right ?
With what appears to be 1/2 of the ac output mistakenly earthed .
I'm guessing that the regulator is still producing half-wave regulation.

If your mystery regulator only has 2 wires, its a half wave regulator.
I think its wired correctly but at a cost of half of your stators potential output.
These rec/regs are/were used on some lawn tractors and such
But are inadequate for this application.

If the mystery regulator has 3 wires, its wired incorrectly
2 wires are for Ac input
And the 3rd wire and box-case are the DC outputs.
If its one of these... And adequately fused ... and you've double checked that the polarity
Of the case is correct.
just try removing the ground connection from the AC (stator wire )
Unless money doesn't matter to the project
investigating the problem is cheaper than ripping it all out and starting over

And Of couse
All of the above is speculation based on scant evidence
... Based on more evidence,
Anyone with a name , like or similar to Stuart , who does not get this... May need to adjust their medications
.

Re: 1959 Tigress Question
Doc_dup1 #724470 02/06/18 10:52 am
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Quinten:

Originally Posted by quinten
a three wire into two wire conversion , for 12 volt operation
may have been made right on/at the stator output posts , where coil-mag-wire meets multistrand

... is utter, illiterate drivel.

If you bothered to read even just what's posted on the Forum, you'd know "12 volt" (or '6 volt') is only the DC, the alternator configuration cannot possibly have anything to do with it.

Otoh, wtf is "where coil-mag-wire meets multistrand" supposed to mean? It's just "Lookit me, I kin talk 'technical', I kin" ...

Originally Posted by quinten
With what appears to be 1/2 of the ac output mistakenly earthed
I'm guessing that the regulator is still producing half-wave regulation.

facepalm You have absolutely no clue whatsoever.

Originally Posted by quinten
If your mystery regulator only has 2 wires, its a half wave regulator.

Hogwash.

The commonest Lucas plate rectifiers have two AC input terminals, two DC output terminals and are full-wave.
The common aftermarket potted rectifiers have two AC input terminals, two DC output terminals and are full-wave.
The Sebring reg./rec. have two AC input wires, one DC output wire, the case is the second DC output; they're full-wave.

Half- or full-wave cannot be determined just from inputs and outputs.

Originally Posted by quinten
I think its wired correctly

Yeah, well ...

Originally Posted by quinten
If the mystery regulator has 3 wires, its wired incorrectly

facepalm No, IT IS THE ALTERNATOR OUTPUT THAT IS "WIRED INCORRECTLY" ...

http://www.britbike.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/724300/re-1959-tigress-question#Post724300:-
Originally Posted by Doc_dup1
The alternator has a single white/green wire and a ground.

http://www.britbike.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/724388/re-1959-tigress-question#Post724388
Originally Posted by Doc_dup1
The alternator is a puzzle. I can find one white with green wire that goes to the regulator. There is no green/white and green/yellow set that I am used to seeing on other bikes. The other wire from the alternator is attached to a terminal on the regulator that also includes a wire to ground.
(my underline)

Doc has not posted anything about the number of wires on the "regulator" or how they're connected.

Originally Posted by quinten
All of the above is speculation based on scant evidence

No. All you've posted is a mixture of misleading waffle and complete cobblers. And, as always, when this is pointed out, you hijack the thread to argue black is white. None of this is right, or fair to people - like Doc - who simply come here for advice. You have no idea what you're talking about, you never have. Quite why Morgan and John let you carry on just here, when other moderators have banned you ... confused

Also, sadly, you'll likely get this thread locked before Doc has the problem solved. clap

Re: 1959 Tigress Question
Doc_dup1 #724664 02/07/18 5:43 pm
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Thanks Stuart, I am going to rewire some sections of the scooter just to clean up some wires in poor condition. The rest of the harness looks fine. I will not re-connect the stator wire to the same terminal as the ground. I suspect that it the root of the current problem. When they did the conversion, they did not bother to use correct wire colors. After looking closely, I did notice that the big red wire going to ground shows some heat damage. I do have the users manual diagram and I think that I can figure that out. The single 12 volt battery mod was actually done very well. There is a battery box at the right rear under the body work and it is mounted nicely. This is not going to be a show bike. The owner just wants to be able to ride it on occasion. I appreciate all of the advice, electrics have never been my strong suit, but this is a simple system that I am comfortable with now that I understand the basics. My major problem is the mystery regulator that has been added. It does not show a name, nothing is labeled and there is no diagram.

Doc


Doc

Mostly Triumphs with a few BSA's a Norton, and two BMW's

Re: 1959 Tigress Question
Doc_dup1 #724712 02/08/18 1:30 am
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Quote
My major problem is the mystery regulator that has been added. It does not show a name, nothing is labeled and there is no diagram. Doc

Cool doc.
Not surprisingly,
There are any number of people here who can help you out.
Some less paranoid and insecure than others.
Electrical problems can be less daunting if you break them down into phases

First in order to take some of the mystery out of the mystery box ...
tell us the number wires the regulator has.
Not any extras, just the number into the potting/housing/box.
It would be simple to throw it away and start over... But this is not necessary until more is know.

Secondly , the 2 wires (from the stator ) ... How do you propose to test them ?
A number of tests, some more definitive than others, were proposed.
Hoping they work with a new regulator is one option .
But
Have you physically traced the 2 wires to the stator ?
(if the stator and lead wiring are not sound
the best regulator in the world may be of little help )
.



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