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A65 Tiiming Side Main Bearing - No Lip #720735
01/01/18 2:04 pm
01/01/18 2:04 pm
Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 484
Stafford, UK
Andy Lorenz Offline OP
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Andy Lorenz  Offline OP
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Stafford, UK
Hi Chaps,
I'm rebuilding my friends 1970 A65L, as it has been standing for 40 years in Georgia.
(I'm in the UK)

We decided to replace the drive side main bearing as it had been sitting for a very long time, as the oil was very black & sticky.
The gearbox was full of brown crap.
The sludge trap was clean of course.

My local British motorcycle shop, who had also imported the bike supplied the new bearings.

The recommended using a slightly different main roller bearing, this one does not have a lip on its outer race.
The shop stated that this was better, as it allowed the inner race to move without scuffing against the outer race lip.

I have dry assembled the crank, and now there is no end float, a change of shims is no problem.

HOWEVER
I cannot get my head around the concept of not having the main bearing lock up against the lip, and then using the 1 thou end float to allow for expansion.
By not having a lip, what is to stop the whole crankshaft assemble from moving around ?
I know that there is a thrush bush located on the inside of the timing side bush.

When I torque up the drive side nut with the rotor ^ front sprocket in place, all this is doing is ensuring that the bearing and shims are pulled together tight, is this correct ?

Is my local bike shop talking gobblygook ?
Also, as I have not got any spare 1966-1970 shims in my shed, but have the earlier type (1962-1966) would there be any harm in mixing the two types of shims together, or am I being lazy, and should just buy some.

cheers
Andy


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Re: A65 Tiiming Side Main Bearing - No Lip [Re: Andy Lorenz] #720744
01/01/18 3:51 pm
01/01/18 3:51 pm
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Posts: 3,702
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DMadigan Offline
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The crank is located by the roller lip on the left and the thrust washer on the right. If there is no lip on the roller outer race, what is constraining the crank from moving left? Probably the case.

Re: A65 Tiiming Side Main Bearing - No Lip [Re: DMadigan] #720765
01/01/18 5:39 pm
01/01/18 5:39 pm
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 467
just a guy from Jersey [Hopewe...
N
nert Offline
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just a guy from Jersey [Hopewe...
It sounds like a disaster waiting to happen if there is no edge on the bearing. Do you have a brand and part number to share?


keep your "oddies" lubricated, and carry a dime
Re: A65 Tiiming Side Main Bearing - No Lip [Re: DMadigan] #720766
01/01/18 5:39 pm
01/01/18 5:39 pm
Joined: May 2013
Posts: 4,841
Rotherham - S. Yorkshire
Allan Gill Offline

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Originally Posted by DMadigan
The crank is located by the roller lip on the left and the thrust washer on the right. If there is no lip on the roller outer race, what is constraining the crank from moving left? Probably the case.


My thoughts, otherwise it doesnt make sense without photos. Fit a ball race Andy, how many miles will this bike see anyway?


beerchug
Re: A65 Tiiming Side Main Bearing - No Lip [Re: Allan Gill] #720773
01/01/18 6:29 pm
01/01/18 6:29 pm
Joined: Dec 2017
Posts: 161
England
F
ferretjuggler Offline
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England
It sounds like an idea that would work perfectly well on a 650 Triumph twin.
The ball race on the TS would control all axial movement the roller DS would only have to deal with radial loads.

On a BSA twin with the TS bush it sounds like a recipe for disaster.
If you had some way of controlling the end float on the TS like the Devimead conversion or the A70 set up, then yes by all means.
Otherwise it makes zero sense.

Re: A65 Tiiming Side Main Bearing - No Lip [Re: Andy Lorenz] #720778
01/01/18 7:19 pm
01/01/18 7:19 pm
Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 484
Stafford, UK
Andy Lorenz Offline OP
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Stafford, UK
This is my conclusion as well, as the timing side is a bush, I need the lipped roller bearing, or put in an earlier ball bearing.

The shop rebuilds all types of British bikes, and must have had a mind-fart moment, and got confused with a Triumph design.


Thrash, Bang, Re-Build...
Re: A65 Tiiming Side Main Bearing - No Lip [Re: Andy Lorenz] #720962
01/03/18 5:31 pm
01/03/18 5:31 pm
Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 484
Stafford, UK
Andy Lorenz Offline OP
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Update:
My bike shop was under the impression that my A65 engine had a ball bearing on its timing side - arggh.

So, the new solution is to install a ball bearing on the drive side, and shim up the end float.

Simples.


Thrash, Bang, Re-Build...
Re: A65 Tiiming Side Main Bearing - No Lip [Re: Andy Lorenz] #720964
01/03/18 6:13 pm
01/03/18 6:13 pm
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DMadigan Offline
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You do not need to shim the ball drive side for end float. The bearing controls it.

Re: A65 Tiiming Side Main Bearing - No Lip [Re: Andy Lorenz] #720978
01/03/18 8:49 pm
01/03/18 8:49 pm
Joined: Dec 2017
Posts: 161
England
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ferretjuggler Offline
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England
Originally Posted by Andy Lorenz
Update:
My bike shop was under the impression that my A65 engine had a ball bearing on its timing side - arggh.

So, the new solution is to install a ball bearing on the drive side, and shim up the end float.

Simples.



Time to change your bike shop to somewhere that actually knows BSA
motorcycles properly ?
I'm sure that they are very good in their area of expertise.

Re: A65 Tiiming Side Main Bearing - No Lip [Re: DMadigan] #720982
01/03/18 9:24 pm
01/03/18 9:24 pm
Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 484
Stafford, UK
Andy Lorenz Offline OP
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There are shims on the earlier cranks will ball bearings, this engine will also have the thrust washer on the timing side.

I will shim up the end float.


Thrash, Bang, Re-Build...
Re: A65 Tiiming Side Main Bearing - No Lip [Re: Andy Lorenz] #720986
01/03/18 10:35 pm
01/03/18 10:35 pm
Joined: Jan 2014
Posts: 3,787
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NickL Offline
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With the late crank arrangement having a thrust washer on the timing side, you must shim the
drive side bearing to set the end float. Regardless of whether it's a ball or roller, the end float
must be set to both centre the crank and prevent the thrust washer on the timing side coming
adrift and floating about.

The early set up was shimmed at the ball drive side to centre the crank, the crank was narrower
and the timing side bearing flange was thicker, no timing side thrust washer was fitted.



Re: A65 Tiiming Side Main Bearing - No Lip [Re: Andy Lorenz] #720990
01/03/18 10:57 pm
01/03/18 10:57 pm
Joined: May 2013
Posts: 4,841
Rotherham - S. Yorkshire
Allan Gill Offline

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Mine isn’t shimmed and no thrust washer fitted. The crank perfectly centred. There is also bags of clearance on the TS as I removed the part of the casting which locates the bush in a fixed position, although you can’t do this when using the bush. Fit and forget with no fuss.


beerchug
Re: A65 Tiiming Side Main Bearing - No Lip [Re: Andy Lorenz] #720999
01/03/18 11:44 pm
01/03/18 11:44 pm
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NickL Offline
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So i'm totally wrong again, i'm going to jack this lark in.

Sorry about my postings, please ignore all of 'em..



Re: A65 Tiiming Side Main Bearing - No Lip [Re: Andy Lorenz] #721030
01/04/18 7:26 am
01/04/18 7:26 am
Joined: Jul 2012
Posts: 333
Forfar, Scotland
J
JER.Hill Offline
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Forfar, Scotland
Hi Nick

Happy New Year. Horses and water come to mind, keep at it your doing a great job.

John

Re: A65 Tiiming Side Main Bearing - No Lip [Re: NickL] #721031
01/04/18 7:33 am
01/04/18 7:33 am
Joined: Aug 2014
Posts: 1,506
OZ
Triless Online content
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OZ
Yes, Nick, you are one of us now, no need for silly temperaments. Here a spade is a bloody digging implement, and thats that !

Re: A65 Tiiming Side Main Bearing - No Lip [Re: Allan Gill] #721032
01/04/18 8:19 am
01/04/18 8:19 am
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Posts: 161
England
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ferretjuggler Offline
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Originally Posted by Allan Gill
Mine isn’t shimmed and no thrust washer fitted. The crank perfectly centred. There is also bags of clearance on the TS as I removed the part of the casting which locates the bush in a fixed position, although you can’t do this when using the bush. Fit and forget with no fuss.


Please excuse my confusion about the above.
I'm assuming that you're referring to your own A65 in the above post.
Crankcase modified on the TS so the bush can't be used.
Ball race on the DS, roller bearing on the TS (with no axial location) ?
Devimead end feed conversion for the big ends?

Re: A65 Tiiming Side Main Bearing - No Lip [Re: Andy Lorenz] #721033
01/04/18 8:35 am
01/04/18 8:35 am
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NickL Offline
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Only meant as a 'pop' anyway. If i'd used the full editor i could have put a silly face on it.

Allan, your engine is not in any way standard, the statements you make may mislead people, that's all.
You have an end fed motor with a needle race in the timing side and a ball race in the drive side, not even
a 'normal' SRM/Devimead type conversion.
You may have been very lucky getting the crank dead centre without shimming off the drive side race but
that is very unusual, even the factory included shims and a retainer on the early setup to achieve that.
See the early workshop manual if you don't believe me. In your case you are using a late type crank which
is wider, without measuring both types side by side i don't know where the differences are. I do know that both
the roller and ball races have the same dimensions though, so draw your own conclusions.
If you have a lot of clearance on the timing side of the crank as you have no thrust there, the natural loading of
the oil pump will be trying to pull the drive side bearing out of the case. It may be an idea to correct this
when next you pull the motor down. A simple thrust arrangement allowing a thou or 2 endfloat before you
tighten the drive side ball race onto the crank would be better. When the cases get warm those bearings can
and will move.

Happy new year to all, sorry if my comment was misconstrued.



Re: A65 Tiiming Side Main Bearing - No Lip [Re: Andy Lorenz] #721034
01/04/18 10:06 am
01/04/18 10:06 am
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Posts: 484
Stafford, UK
Andy Lorenz Offline OP
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I understand you NickL; that Allan chap, he's not been the same since he moved to Yorkshire.


Thrash, Bang, Re-Build...
Re: A65 Tiiming Side Main Bearing - No Lip [Re: Andy Lorenz] #721035
01/04/18 10:41 am
01/04/18 10:41 am
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N
NickL Offline
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I know it's old but i still love this.................
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6VLYpKGVBUg



Re: A65 Tiiming Side Main Bearing - No Lip [Re: Andy Lorenz] #721044
01/04/18 1:43 pm
01/04/18 1:43 pm
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 4,344
New Jersey USA
Tridentman Online content

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Nice one, Nick--not seen that one before----

Re: A65 Tiiming Side Main Bearing - No Lip [Re: Andy Lorenz] #721101
01/04/18 9:43 pm
01/04/18 9:43 pm
Joined: May 2013
Posts: 4,841
Rotherham - S. Yorkshire
Allan Gill Offline

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Originally Posted by Andy Lorenz
I understand you NickL; that Allan chap, he's not been the same since he moved to Yorkshire.


I know, my accent is neither one thing or the other now laughing

Nick, yes your right my bike isn’t standard but the needle roller has replaced the bush. When I built the motor I was going to fit a thrust washer however with the needle roller setup the outer sleeve was bigger than the ID of the thrust washer. After having clearance issues originally (where things got tighter when hot, and destroyed two NKIA bearings (with the ball race removed) I went for the narrower needle only bearing (needle width still being the same) because the bearing sat further into the case I had made up a bronze ring. This will act as a thrust point however it won’t act as well as a thrust washer, however if it does move and make contact then i will see discolouration in the oil. So far nothing. I could also refit the outrigger bearing which will stop that issue also. The bearing was a good fit in the case and if my memory serves me correctly I used bearing fit on the bearing (however I guess if it wants to move it will)

If the motor comes apart again then I will redo the bronze ring arrangement and make a thrust washer of sorts and machine the cases to take it. I think Lemans did something similar.

Out of interest, with the standard setup what actually keeps the thrust washer from coming out of its locating point when the end float on the crank becomes to great?


beerchug
Re: A65 Tiiming Side Main Bearing - No Lip [Re: NickL] #721102
01/04/18 9:47 pm
01/04/18 9:47 pm
Joined: May 2013
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Rotherham - S. Yorkshire
Allan Gill Offline

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Originally Posted by NickL
I know it's old but i still love this.................
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6VLYpKGVBUg


It is a good sketch one of my favourites too. Many people don’t realise how close to real life that is


beerchug
Re: A65 Tiiming Side Main Bearing - No Lip [Re: Andy Lorenz] #721109
01/04/18 10:37 pm
01/04/18 10:37 pm
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NickL Offline
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Hi Allan
The thrust washer is held by the crank, it relies on the small end float to retain it.
I have a motor i'm doing at the moment a 1971 which has had the early timing side bush fitted into it,
the bloke had obviously never built one of these before.
The flange on the early bush is thicker and the thrust washer was not able to be retained properly.
The long and the short of it is, it has dropped down and chewed the locating lugs off the case and
pushed the crank over, forcing the drive side race through the case. This is the one i'm modifying
to have thrust controlled like an A70. This allowed me to just use a high temp epoxy to replace the
broken out piece of case as it's now no longer taking any weight of end float control. As you know
i've a huge aversion to welding these cases as whenever i've had any done they always distort.
I'm still waiting for the new special TS bush (xmas post) it has a thicker flange and will be the thrust
as well. This will just leave the counter bore of the timing side case and turning a 3mm stepped end
on the crank for the thrust washer which i conveniently had.....
A few years ago all this trouble and messing wouldn't have been worth it as cases were $25 at swaps,
now it's a bit different. He gets to keep his engine number as well.
Bloody shame as he had waited ages for the work to be done and had only ridden the bike about 25 miles
nearly everything in the old lump was new including SRM pump etc. he must have spent bundles on it.
New CR gears (put together with knackered cam plate!) and masses of lay shaft end float so dogs needed
to be dressed. Primary chain about 1 inch longer than it should be etc etc.
Bloody stainless steel fasteners all over it too, throwing most of them away as most, as per normal are too short.
These bikes aren't supposed to look like cutlery sets, why use crap Stainless steel everywhere.



Re: A65 Tiiming Side Main Bearing - No Lip [Re: Andy Lorenz] #721113
01/04/18 11:48 pm
01/04/18 11:48 pm
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NickL Offline
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Allan, sorry to keep wittering on..............
I used a similar setup to your's on an engine with a roller drive side years ago. (Large needle race on TS.)
At that time i had access to a mill with a boring/facing tool so i just machined the timing side inner case flat
and made up a stepped bronze ring with the face able to pick up the 50mm protruding ring on the crank, It was fixed to the case
by 3 x 4mm countersunk allen screws. This was a 750 engine i sold to a guy for a flat tracker, he revved it like a 2 stroke!
It proved very reliable and was successful against the comparable triumphs etc. at the time.



Re: A65 Tiiming Side Main Bearing - No Lip [Re: Andy Lorenz] #721147
01/05/18 12:54 pm
01/05/18 12:54 pm
Joined: May 2013
Posts: 4,841
Rotherham - S. Yorkshire
Allan Gill Offline

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Didn't think you were wittering on Nick, Always interested to hear from experienced people (regardless of the subject) and often my questions are oppositions are that until I find out why... (like needing the end float limited to reduce/stop bearing movement).

I was thinking of screwing it down the case also as you did. From memory the bearing is 27mm, i had a 4mm spacer made up. On hind sight it could have been a couple of mm thicker, more so even, then made with a wider surface area for thurst control.

Do you have any drawings/photos of the work you did, would be interesting to compare ideas (and possibly pinch ideas too wink )


beerchug
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