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wire compare
#716457 11/24/17 4:35 pm
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btour Offline OP
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Hi,

Rating of 16 AWG 105C compared to Triumph unit wire?


Bob, Lifetime bike: '71 T120R, bought in '71 at Ken Heanes, England.
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Re: wire compare
btour #716478 11/24/17 6:11 pm
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Hi Bob,

Originally Posted by btour
Rating of 16 AWG 105C compared to Triumph unit wire?

Depends on the "Triumph wire" ... smile

Original "Triumph wire" was supplied by Lucas. The vast majority of it consisted of multiple strands of 32SWG (No. 32 (British) Standard Wire Gauge).

Generally, the thinnest wire Lucas supplied consisted of 14 strands, rated for 7.5 Amps. '71-on, the whole harness was made of 14/32SWG; frown pre-'71, those wires common to several circuits (Brown/Blue, Brown/White, Red to battery +ve, White or White/Blue from ignition switch) were made of 28- or 44(?)-strand, rated for 15A and 23.5A respectively.

Otoh, the conductor dimensions (o.d. and cross-section area) of AWG are based on a single-strand conductor, multi-strand conductor of the same AWG number will have a smaller cross-section area, depending on the o.d. of individual strands ...

In a very, very rough approximation, 14/32SWG Lucas wire has a conductor cross-section area of a gnat's under 1 sq.mm. (nearest equivalent is probably 19AWG).16AWG has about 50% more cross-section area. So, if you were wondering about the likely British current rating for 16AWG, probably around 10~11 Amps.

Hth.

Regards,

Re: wire compare
Stuart #716481 11/24/17 6:34 pm
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btour Offline OP
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Originally Posted by Stuart
Hi Bob,



Otoh, the conductor dimensions (o.d. and cross-section area) of AWG are based on a single-strand conductor, multi-strand conductor of the same AWG number will have a smaller cross-section area, depending on the o.d. of individual strands ...

In a very, very rough approximation, 14/32SWG Lucas wire has a conductor cross-section area of a gnat's under 1 sq.mm. (nearest equivalent is probably 19AWG).16AWG has about 50% more cross-section area. So, if you were wondering about the likely British current rating for 16AWG, probably around 10~11 Amps.

Hth.

Regards,



Hard to judge cross section. What does 105C mean? It looks like the wire I asked about would not be enough amps for ignition to sparx box to extend the w/y?


Bob, Lifetime bike: '71 T120R, bought in '71 at Ken Heanes, England.
Re: wire compare
btour #716482 11/24/17 6:38 pm
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btour Offline OP
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I missed the amp rating for 71 and on. As long as I have the same amp or better it is ok? Looks thick enough.


Bob, Lifetime bike: '71 T120R, bought in '71 at Ken Heanes, England.
Re: wire compare
btour #716491 11/24/17 7:02 pm
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I have a bit of w/g from Triumph I might use but it has no numbers on it.


Bob, Lifetime bike: '71 T120R, bought in '71 at Ken Heanes, England.
Re: wire compare
btour #716496 11/24/17 7:09 pm
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btour Offline OP
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Have a an AWM E 84288 ? also LL55830 Very confusing so many numbers and letters and different formats.


Bob, Lifetime bike: '71 T120R, bought in '71 at Ken Heanes, England.
Re: wire compare
btour #716503 11/24/17 7:58 pm
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Hi Bob,

Originally Posted by btour
Hard to judge cross section.

Uh-uh, just look it up - e.g. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_wire_gauge.

Originally Posted by btour
What does 105C mean?

An upper temperature limit?

Originally Posted by btour
It looks like the wire I asked about would not be enough amps for ignition to sparx box to extend the w/y?

No problem at all. The wires between any e.i. 'box' and the trigger unit carry very low Volts and Amps. Because of that, good continuity is the most important, so nothing attenuates between trigger unit and 'box'. Fwiw, I use metric 9-strand, each strand 0.03 mm. o.d. and rated for only 5.75 Amps.

Originally Posted by btour
I have a bit of w/g from Triumph I might use

Depends how and where but generally I wouldn't - the fewer connectors between trigger unit and 'box', the better, because connectors are more likely to give you problems than plain wire. Apart from connections at the trigger unit and 'box' themselves, I try and limit connections to one other in each wire, about half-way (assuming the position's sheltered).

Hth.

Regards,

Re: wire compare
btour #716508 11/24/17 8:23 pm
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HI Stuart,

Thank you. I have really no choice. The w/y is too short as it is too readily accessible.

Pls help on my hard to kick start thread. There is a summary of electrical measurements on the third or fourth page from the end. I don't understand the reading of my fluke set on ohms vs continuity and I think that might be adding confusion. And the rectifier is in place so I think that is what is giving resistance from w/y to ground. I proved the circuit with voltage drop test. No drop in voltage. But pls read the summary and the ends.



Bob, Lifetime bike: '71 T120R, bought in '71 at Ken Heanes, England.
Re: wire compare
btour #716538 11/25/17 3:04 am
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Btour, not a direct answer to your question, but if you're thinking about wiring or replacing wires, and you buy standard automotive wire as you would find in a typical automotive supply store, you will find that 18 AWG is sufficient for lighting and ignition circuits, and 14 AWG is sufficient for rectifier-to-battery, battery-to-ground, and battery-to-zener diode. As you noted, there's nothing wrong with going larger, except where you have to snake wires through or into small spaces (like the dipper switch, for instance).





Mark Z

'65(lower)/'66(upper, wheels, front end, controls)/'67(seat, exhaust, fuel tank, headlamp)/'70(frame) A65 Bitsa.
Re: wire compare
btour #716548 11/25/17 8:17 am
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Hi Bob,

Originally Posted by btour
I have really no choice. The w/y is too short as it is too readily accessible.

As Mark posted, just buy a length of wire sufficient to reach from the trigger unit to the 'box' - British Wiring sell http://www.britishwiring.com/14-Strand-PVC-Wire-18-ga-AWG-p/c114.htm in both Black/White and Black/Yellow. The stuff is 85 cents a metre and the most you can need is two metres of each.

Faffing about splicing in random bits of wire is cutting off your nose to spite your face electrically.

Originally Posted by btour
Pls help on my hard to kick start thread.

I'll do my best to get to it. Unfortunately, I'm posting in between dealing with some important family stuff.

Hth.

Regards,

Re: wire compare
Stuart #716562 11/25/17 2:11 pm
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btour Offline OP
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Originally Posted by Stuart
Hi Bob,

Originally Posted by btour
I have really no choice. The w/y is too short as it is too readily accessible.

As Mark posted, just buy a length of wire sufficient to reach from the trigger unit to the 'box' - British Wiring sell http://www.britishwiring.com/14-Strand-PVC-Wire-18-ga-AWG-p/c114.htm in both Black/White and Black/Yellow. The stuff is 85 cents a metre and the most you can need is two metres of each.

Faffing about splicing in random bits of wire is cutting off your nose to spite your face electrically.

Originally Posted by btour
Pls help on my hard to kick start thread.

I'll do my best to get to it. Unfortunately, I'm posting in between dealing with some important family stuff.

Hth.

Regards,


The wire in question is the w/y wire which is the power feed to the box. The issue is that it is too short, and I can't get my fingers on it. Or just barely. I had to fish it out from under the coil tray. Once I take the coil tray off I can get at it. Then I want an idea where it comes from I could make up a new wire which is long enough. Or I could just splice in with the wire I have in hand, that 16 that already has a female spade, so it is just a matter of 1 more termination in the line.

Or I could just hang it with a zip that I could grab easily next time. All this is about being able to get at wires easily for a volt drop test. LOL I have too much wire with all the rest, and too little with this w/y. I already rerouted the plug for the box so that it was available, and I am trying to think of a place to mount it. It has two notches, not holes, lol, on either end of the plug. It is too long to mount upright on the coil part of the tray, its wires will be pressed up against the seat pan. And the rectifier takes up the other real estate. What I am toying with is a box preferably plastic that I attach to the tool tray, and that box will hold the wires folded. Then a push pin body mount to connect the tool tray. I always hated dealing with that bolt.

I am gonna need a crimper for Lucas male bullets., if I am going to redo some of these wires. I also don't know how to do the double female spades. I don't have one.


Bob, Lifetime bike: '71 T120R, bought in '71 at Ken Heanes, England.
Re: wire compare
Mark Z #716563 11/25/17 2:16 pm
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btour Offline OP
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Originally Posted by Mark Z
Btour, not a direct answer to your question, but if you're thinking about wiring or replacing wires, and you buy standard automotive wire as you would find in a typical automotive supply store, you will find that 18 AWG is sufficient for lighting and ignition circuits, and 14 AWG is sufficient for rectifier-to-battery, battery-to-ground, and battery-to-zener diode. As you noted, there's nothing wrong with going larger, except where you have to snake wires through or into small spaces (like the dipper switch, for instance).





Thank you, Mark


Bob, Lifetime bike: '71 T120R, bought in '71 at Ken Heanes, England.
Re: wire compare
btour #716564 11/25/17 2:18 pm
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Anyone know how the idiot lights come apart for service?


Bob, Lifetime bike: '71 T120R, bought in '71 at Ken Heanes, England.
Re: wire compare
btour #716568 11/25/17 3:09 pm
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I get it now, you're trying to have the highest thread and reply count...


'68 Bonnie, '70 TR6r
'74 CL360
trail 70's and minitrails
Re: wire compare
slofut #716572 11/25/17 3:44 pm
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Originally Posted by slofut
I get it now, you're trying to have the highest thread and reply count...

No! I am trying to get answers to questions I have so that I can fix an issue. You want me to post these on the long thread, where no one will find them? Are you drinking? I ask because your post does not help.


Bob, Lifetime bike: '71 T120R, bought in '71 at Ken Heanes, England.
Re: wire compare
btour #716575 11/25/17 4:16 pm
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Hi Bob,

Originally Posted by btour
w/y wire

blush Sorry, reading too fast ...

Originally Posted by btour
I am gonna need a crimper for lucas male bullets

http://www.britishwiring.com/Ratchet-Style-Bullet-Crimping-Tool-p/tt85.htm Not cheap but you need to be able to put a lot of leverage on modern bullets if they're going to stay on original Lucas wire. Problem is the metric conductor they're made for has a slightly larger cross-section than the 'equivalent' old Lucas. frown Fwiw, I rarely bother, I replace with metric wire then I know the bullet will almost never pull off.

Originally Posted by btour
I also don't know how to do the double female spades.

Fiddly. I've terminals where the 'wings'/'tangs' aren't curled over, I squeeze the bottom curve of the terminal between the longer 'wings'/'tangs' between some thin/needle-nose pliers to widen it and squeeze the sides of the terminals against the pliers. I twist the two wires' bared conductors together, push the twist between the shorter 'wings'/'tangs' and crimp them. Then I squeeze the insulated parts of the wires between the terminal 'til it'l fit in the crimper's jaws, curl the ends of the 'wings'/'tangs' with the pliers then finish off with the crimper.

As I say, fiddly ... cool

Originally Posted by btour
Anyone know how the idiot lights come apart for service?

If they're original, the bulb holder is just a tight push-fit in the bottom of the lens sleeve. If they're original, the lens sleeve looks like it has a 'lip' on the end opposite the lens itself; this is actually the bottom of the bulb holder, get a couple of fingernails over it and you should be able to pull out the bulb holder.

Hth.

Regards,

Re: wire compare
Stuart #716579 11/25/17 4:35 pm
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btour Offline OP
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Thank you.

And if I get metric wire, what crimper can I use. I don't see a hex crimper anywhere I go.

I am going to have to print out that fiddly.:)

And if they are not original?

Pls read the last few posts on the starting thread. I found the resistance in the idiot light, don't know if it is normal to find it there, so I need to know asap. Thank you smile

Last edited by btour; 11/25/17 6:36 pm.

Bob, Lifetime bike: '71 T120R, bought in '71 at Ken Heanes, England.
Re: wire compare
Stuart #716602 11/25/17 7:16 pm
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Hi Bob,

Originally Posted by btour
if I get metric wire, what crimper can I use. I don't see a hex crimper anywhere I go.

confused

Originally Posted by Stuart
Originally Posted by btour
I am gonna need a crimper for lucas male bullets

http://www.britishwiring.com/Ratchet-Style-Bullet-Crimping-Tool-p/tt85.htm

Despite their best efforts not to describe it as such, certainly all the wire British Wiring sells is metric, likewise their bullet terminals.

This stuff is turned out by the mile (kilometre?) probably in China, Europe's metric so no-one claims anything different. I suppose it isn't impossible someone in the US could be making true AWG but, if it's retailed as cheap or cheaper than BW's prices, I doubt it. Likewise bullet terminals.

Originally Posted by btour
idiot lights

Originally Posted by btour
if they are not original?

Post a pic. or a link? Worst case, they're sealed and all you can do is replace it/them. If so, replace with ones you can take apart to replace the bulb? wink

Hth.

Regards,

Re: wire compare
btour #716621 11/25/17 9:12 pm
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Am only concerned because it is the oil pressure light.


Bob, Lifetime bike: '71 T120R, bought in '71 at Ken Heanes, England.
Re: wire compare
btour #716707 11/26/17 3:19 pm
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Originally Posted by btour
Originally Posted by slofut
I get it now, you're trying to have the highest thread and reply count...

No! I am trying to get answers to questions I have so that I can fix an issue. You want me to post these on the long thread, where no one will find them? Are you drinking? I ask because your post does not help.


Sorry Bob, too much caffeine yesterday and not enough patience. My apologies. As for wires, and lengthening the w/y, why not solder a splice and shrink tube? Also, if you're not too concerned with originality txl wire is good quality here... http://www.wirebarn.com
I usually make a good connection on the spade terminals by hand just folding them properly using a pair of side cutters and a little finesse then solder them. Bullets I've had no problem soldering them either. Those ground bullets with the hole in the tip that you fold over the wire... I usually replace them with a more substantial connection.
Bill


'68 Bonnie, '70 TR6r
'74 CL360
trail 70's and minitrails
Re: wire compare
btour #716709 11/26/17 3:35 pm
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btour Offline OP
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Thanks slofut,

My sense of humor is a little lacking too. Trying to get ahead of winter.


Bob, Lifetime bike: '71 T120R, bought in '71 at Ken Heanes, England.
Re: wire compare
btour #716710 11/26/17 3:39 pm
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The wire barn wire is made in the USA supposedly, and for whatever it's worth. But I've used a lot of it, txl jacket is thinner but tougher, more flexible and doesn't seem to stain and get as dirty as regular parts house wire. Other sellers on eBay have colors with stripes, I've used this seller too.

https://www.eBay.com/itm/AUTOMOTIVE-WIRE-18-AWG-HIGH-TEMP-TXL-WIRE-GREEN-WITH-GREY-GRAY-STRIPE-25-FT-COIL/291747950737?hash=item43ed887091:g:rGAAAOSwampXHj71


'68 Bonnie, '70 TR6r
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Re: wire compare
btour #716741 11/26/17 5:41 pm
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I can maybe understand not wanting to spring for the special crimper for the OE-type snap ("bullet") terminals, but there's no reason not to have a good all-around crimper for blade ("spade") terminals and ring terminals. One can be acquired for $15-$20 at an automotive supply store or electronics outlet. Use the kind that puts a nice dimple in the back side of the terminal (never the split side), and your crimps will be good and permanent.

When I wired my A65 bitsa, I bought the solder-only snap terminals (from British Wiring). I thought I was at least a pretty good solderer, but a few of my solder joints failed. In a couple of cases, I inadvertently allowed insulation to melt into and contaminate the joints, which I only detected months later when the solder cracked. Next time around, I will definitely get the crimp-on snap terminals and the proprietary crimper.









Mark Z

'65(lower)/'66(upper, wheels, front end, controls)/'67(seat, exhaust, fuel tank, headlamp)/'70(frame) A65 Bitsa.
Re: wire compare
Mark Z #716754 11/26/17 6:40 pm
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Originally Posted by Mark Z
I can maybe understand not wanting to spring for the special crimper for the OE-type snap ("bullet") terminals, but there's no reason not to have a good all-around crimper for blade ("spade") terminals and ring terminals. One can be acquired for $15-$20 at an automotive supply store or electronics outlet. Use the kind that puts a nice dimple in the back side of the terminal (never the split side), and your crimps will be good and permanent.

When I wired my A65 bitsa, I bought the solder-only snap terminals (from British Wiring). I thought I was at least a pretty good solderer, but a few of my solder joints failed. In a couple of cases, I inadvertently allowed insulation to melt into and contaminate the joints, which I only detected months later when the solder cracked. Next time around, I will definitely get the crimp-on snap terminals and the proprietary crimper.









Mark, I have a crimper. Good tip though, about the split side.

All is Lucas. I like the the terminations much better that what else is around. I guess I am going to have to get that crimper.
I have soldered with success. Low voltage. Just tin the tip of the wire. Then heat the connecter. The point is to avoid heat to the wire which will make it brittle, subject to vibration breakage. Crimping is better, But Lucas bullets are the best to solder, if the wire jacket sits securely inside the bullet. So size matters relative to the insulation. As Stuart keeps pointing out. It is all pretty confusing about what you are getting.


Bob, Lifetime bike: '71 T120R, bought in '71 at Ken Heanes, England.
Re: wire compare
btour #716840 11/27/17 4:20 am
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"Mark, I have a crimper. Good tip though, about the split side."

Ok. My comment was directed towards whoever above recommended squishing them with pliers and then soldering.




Mark Z

'65(lower)/'66(upper, wheels, front end, controls)/'67(seat, exhaust, fuel tank, headlamp)/'70(frame) A65 Bitsa.

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