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gREgg-K
gREgg-K
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Re: Hard starting by kicking
btour #714200 11/07/17 5:33 pm
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The fluke is a good meter, took over from Avo as the power industry standard. worth spending some time getting to know it.
Do NOT use the K ( K = 1,000) ohm range for continuity switch testing. use the low ohms setting, zero - 100 or whatever it has. You will not get good readings close to zero on the K Ohm range.

in another thread you said you had the Pod and rectifier wired together, so that was bollocks or was it? . if you have a stock rectifier and its been replaced in living memory it might work OK.
Quoting from your chat with Stuart
"Stuart,

All wires are connected to rectifier. Those wire go down. Pod is plugged in. Those wires go up. Alternator wires go up. All is hidden. Someday I will look, when I get it inside. It is working or I would have blown a bulb by now. Not going to mess. I just wanted to know if both could be connected at the same time as a redundant system. If you say no then no it is."

What is the truth, Pod fitted or not? You are not making this easy. In another thread you mention a blown headlamp bulb , again the above quote contradicts this.


Simple test, when the bike is running put the meter to 20 V DC range across the battery, if the charging is good , volts will rise with revs to 14.5, maybe a bit higher then level out , this rise should be around 3,000 RPMs. at idle speed the volts will drop. if Volts exceed 15.5 the Zener is goosed.

OK the kill switch is not a relic , if it checks out OK for continuity leave it alone if you are so scared of it.
Your memory is toast, we discussed stripping kill switches in a bag before , the bag stops the bits from vanishing onto the shop floor. it was in a post I deleted.

if you are feeling lucky and have fitted the new coils correctly you should be able to start and run the bike with the ignition switch hot wired as explained by Adam and others. This assumes a lot, Given the low quality of your info and feedback, POd fitted , Pod not fitted, meter on wrong range I doubt if you are that lucky.
The state of your workshop is of no concern to me , for your own sake tidy up.
neither am I interested in ongoing gravel piles, what your favorite authors are or your current head state, lets focus on getting your bike running.



Last edited by gavin eisler; 11/07/17 5:44 pm.

71 Devimead, John Hill, John Holmes A65 750
56 Norbsa 68 Longstroke A65
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Re: Hard starting by kicking
btour #714201 11/07/17 5:51 pm
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reviewing what we have learned today.
You are not familiar with using a test meter, this means you may or may not have a dodgy ignition switch.
When you know how to read the meter on the correct range report back, I suggest you use the meter on the lowest Ohms range it has, you used iton K, I can only guess that you didnt know K meant 1,000. This lowers my meagre hope levels.


You may or may not have a Pod and a rectifier, i cant be sure, a picture would help.
Your workshop is untidy.


71 Devimead, John Hill, John Holmes A65 750
56 Norbsa 68 Longstroke A65
Cagiva Raptor 650
MZ TS 250
The poster formerly known as Pod
Re: Hard starting by kicking
btour #714203 11/07/17 6:13 pm
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http://vintagebikemagazine.com/technical-articles/Boyer-trouble-shooting/

The Sparks is a direct copy of the Boyer. Scroll down to the bottom where I discuss doing volt drop tests.

While a resistance check of a switch, or the like, will give USE FULL information volt checks around an open circuit are MEANINGLESS!!!!

The Sparx, Boyer, Pazon etc are nothing but electronic switches. Instead of a mechanical switch (points) you have an electronic switch.

This electronic switch connects the input wire to the EI box from the battery/ignition switch (typically white) to the EI box's output wire (typically black in a positive ground system) energizing the coils.

To prevent the battery being drained from the current draw from the coils when the engine is stopped, and the key left on, the electronics switch is left open. Thus you have have an open circuit, no current is flowing (volts = Current x resistance), thus resistance times ZERO current = ZERO volts. At the input wire (typically white) your meter is reading battery voltage and not circuit voltage. With the electronic switch open there is no circuit for current flow, so no ability to measure any voltage drop from resistance.

If you get a 2 ohm reading across the terminals of a switch you will have a voltage drop when the circuit is completed. When measuring the voltage you will have battery voltage at the battery side of the switch and less on the output side of the switch. Because resistance in a circuit is additive a little bit of resistance in a fuse holder, a little bit in the ignition switch, more in a kill button, more in odd connections around the circuit AND ANY RESISTANCE IN THE GROUND GOING BACK TO THE battery all add up.

Re: Hard starting by kicking
btour #714211 11/07/17 6:57 pm
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Thanks John, i appreciate your help, if you want to wade into this mire it would be a good idea to search btours posts from the past couple of weeks on the triumph forum, there is a lot of confusion with contradictory info spread over a few separate threads . trying to debug whats wrong from the wrong side of the pond with quite a few language inconsitencies isnt helping. I had never heard of SPG, seemingly thats a thing about earthing with you colonials.
Fair point about voltages on a circuit with no load , one of the reasons I want Bob to use the Low ohms settings to check continuity. the volts setting is still handy for testing lamp circuits etc. I disagree about MEANINGLESS , if you see / dont see volts ,that tells you something,
lets see what bob gets with the meter on the correct ohms scale.

Last edited by gavin eisler; 11/07/17 7:18 pm.

71 Devimead, John Hill, John Holmes A65 750
56 Norbsa 68 Longstroke A65
Cagiva Raptor 650
MZ TS 250
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Re: Hard starting by kicking
btour #714214 11/07/17 7:24 pm
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Perhaps worth mentioning for you Bob, as you're self-admittedly a little scatty,

many a meter has been blown by accident, eg if you're gonna do resistance checks, disconnect the battery (take fuse out say), so you don't measure current by mistake. As said, put it on lowest scale for ohms (omega) to find switch resistances etc, all of which should be say <0.1 ohm

only have the battery connected when you're doing voltage checks, and as previously said, have it on 20V scale.

ask advice before trying to measure currents (Amps)

Re: Hard starting by kicking
btour #714238 11/07/17 11:47 pm
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Gavin,

Can we forget what I said about the POD, and establish that there is no POD installed? Just analog rec and zener.

I had to review using this meter. The range you are in for resistance is the problem. I used to know how to know that with this meter. I don't now. The user's guide is no longer there. What is there now is useless for what I am wanting to know. I used the scale that I could zero out. The readings start with 0.L followed M and Omega symbol. I believe this is the correct scale. When I tested the ignition switch again across the white and b/b terminals, I get 000 when switched on and 0.L when off. One time I did get a reading of 2 when off, but I am not sure what I was testing. Most times it is 0.L. I think we can say the switch is fine.


Bob, Lifetime bike: '71 T120R, bought in '71 at Ken Heanes, England.
Re: Hard starting by kicking
John Healy #714239 11/07/17 11:53 pm
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Originally Posted by John Healy
http://vintagebikemagazine.com/technical-articles/Boyer-trouble-shooting/

The Sparks is a direct copy of the Boyer. Scroll down to the bottom where I discuss doing volt drop tests.

While a resistance check of a switch, or the like, will give USE FULL information volt checks around an open circuit are MEANINGLESS!!!!

The Sparx, Boyer, Pazon etc are nothing but electronic switches. Instead of a mechanical switch (points) you have an electronic switch.

This electronic switch connects the input wire to the EI box from the battery/ignition switch (typically white) to the EI box's output wire (typically black in a positive ground system) energizing the coils.

To prevent the battery being drained from the current draw from the coils when the engine is stopped, and the key left on, the electronics switch is left open. Thus you have have an open circuit, no current is flowing (volts = Current x resistance), thus resistance times ZERO current = ZERO volts. At the input wire (typically white) your meter is reading battery voltage and not circuit voltage. With the electronic switch open there is no circuit for current flow, so no ability to measure any voltage drop from resistance.

If you get a 2 ohm reading across the terminals of a switch you will have a voltage drop when the circuit is completed. When measuring the voltage you will have battery voltage at the battery side of the switch and less on the output side of the switch. Because resistance in a circuit is additive a little bit of resistance in a fuse holder, a little bit in the ignition switch, more in a kill button, more in odd connections around the circuit AND ANY RESISTANCE IN THE GROUND GOING BACK TO THE BATTERY all add up.


Thank you John smile. I think the switch is fine. I must have had meter of wrong range. Maybe I should test the pickup again. I read 137, but who knows if I was in the wrong range. I just figured that was close to the 130.


Bob, Lifetime bike: '71 T120R, bought in '71 at Ken Heanes, England.
Re: Hard starting by kicking
btour #714242 11/08/17 12:28 am
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Fluke 23 user guide vid here.
havent watched it all but it might help. It has auto ranging, so just select ohms and follow the vids instructions for changing out of auto if desired, if you have the wrong range it will read OL, but only if you have selected too low a range for measuring a high resistance. You may get K ohm readings in the switch off/ open position, in an ideal world this would be infinity or meg ohms , this reading can somtimes be improved by cleaning around the insulating part of the body surrounding the terminals on the switch, but unless its opened up it wont change much, 2Kopen switch in a 12 volt sytem is not a deal breaker its the closed being zero that matters) , anything much less than 2 K when off is a poor insulation fault, when closed / on anything more than o.o ( no K) something is a fail, a 2 ohm closed reading is a bad reading, if it was 2Kohm closed the bike would not have run at all and nothing would work . Once you are sure of the readings feed back. HTH
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_vXiKd1Zb2E
user manuals should be available online,

its a few years since I used one of those at work, and i do recall getting frustrated with some of the more elusive functions, my home meter is a much simpler / cheaper machine. The Fluke is a trustworthy and robust bit of kit but is a bit tricky to master. i seem to recall using it on the diode test setting for simple checks, it makes a beep noise if its a half decent connection ( low ohms) and shows the reading at the same time, handy if you cant see the scale IIRC. very handy when checking 20 fuses at a time.

I am sure we would all like to know about how and where you got the bike, cant be many folks had their old brits from new. i

Last edited by gavin eisler; 11/08/17 1:05 am.

71 Devimead, John Hill, John Holmes A65 750
56 Norbsa 68 Longstroke A65
Cagiva Raptor 650
MZ TS 250
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Re: Hard starting by kicking
btour #714245 11/08/17 1:33 am
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"People keep saying connect to power, or the power wire. No idea what they mean. battery power, box power? If so which one is that? If the black wire goes to the coil, then that leaves the white wire as "the power" wire? It seems I have been told many different things. Maybe they all say the same thing?"
To me this says you cant read a wiring diagram, this connection is clearly illustrated on the Sparx info page I have linked many times now, have you even looked at it. ?Please answer this honestly.

The power wire to the Sparx igniter is the white one, if you disconnect this white one from the loom , it will be found joined to the white yellow somewhere under the seat, just follow the white tail from the Sparx box to the first connector, which is where it joins the feed from the killswitch , part this joint. usually two bullets or a male female blade. Now wire the Sparx white to the fuse straight off the battery negative, its a Hot wire, the Ignition is now ON. If the coils are good and the Sparx is good and everthing worked before and if all thats wrong was the ignition switch your bike should now start and run, you will have to pull the hot wire apart to stop it or take out the fuse.
I am in two minds about giving you this info, there is a large element of danger here, batteries are small bombs, you are less than competent with electrics, for yours and your bikes sake I strongly advise again that you get at least a second pair of hands and eyes.

Last edited by gavin eisler; 11/08/17 1:50 am.

71 Devimead, John Hill, John Holmes A65 750
56 Norbsa 68 Longstroke A65
Cagiva Raptor 650
MZ TS 250
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Re: Hard starting by kicking
btour #714247 11/08/17 2:09 am
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What i say next is going to be harsh. I do not want to be part of some complicated long distance murder plot. For you own good self and your bike thie Risk Assessment for this job sets all sorts of alarms off.
You cant / wont read the wiring diagram. I strongly suspect you may once have known Ohms law ( a minimum requirement) but would now have to google it.
Your work place sounds pretty sketchy.
Risks, Electricity, fire, slips ,trips and falls. Be safe, tidy up and get a friend to keep an eye on you.Have a fire extinguisher handy.
isolate the battery by pulling the fuse whenever you are working on the wiring, unless you want to make voltage measurements, beware of shorts and fuel vapours.

Last edited by gavin eisler; 11/08/17 2:15 am.

71 Devimead, John Hill, John Holmes A65 750
56 Norbsa 68 Longstroke A65
Cagiva Raptor 650
MZ TS 250
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Re: Hard starting by kicking
btour #714248 11/08/17 2:55 am
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Gavin,

You are not helping my confidence much.

I looked at the darn wiring diagram until I am blue in the face.
All was wired correctly.
I suspect it would not run at all if it weren't. It would not bump start.

I suspect, the problem is something in the pick up plate and the box is not sensing its motion at slow turning, but seeing at the faster turning of bump start.

The white wire that feeds the box. Shouldn't I be able to measure the resistance from the spade connector that connects that to box, to the white wire at key switch. AND/or test from the white wire terminal in the sparx connector to same. Wouldn't test indicate kill button switch is ok.

And measure volts at same to a ground?

I think I see what John is suggesting. Take that white wire spade to neg terminal of first coil in the line and measure and compare at different places to battery reading. So, I would disconnect the black lead from the box to that 1st coil, first. Being very careful to not ground? I don't want to render the box useless.

Again, I suspect the pick up. Perhaps the magnets are weak? That means I have to undo the plate, which means I have to mark its place somehow or retime and let the bike dance at 5000 while a friend watches the mark. Maybe I can use a mirror. I have a good timing light still in a box that lets you set the advance. No idea how to use it. Still in the box.

Thanks for link to the utube video. I have not watched it yet. I hate those things. Mostly they blab about their dog etc and race over the important stuff. I will watch it soon. I think I have the meter figured out. I just set it to scale that zeros out, which displays what I posted, 0.L M (omega). Sometimes it wont zero out. Maybe it needs a new battery. The continuity function always zeros. That is the diode tester you mentioned.

I will watch the video.


Bob, Lifetime bike: '71 T120R, bought in '71 at Ken Heanes, England.
Re: Hard starting by kicking
btour #714252 11/08/17 4:06 am
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You guys don't really want to hear the story of my trip to Europe to buy the bike do you? It was the greatest adventure of my life, and I could go on for hours. I always wanted to do it again.

Short story of it. I had 3 friends from school freshman year. One, Fred, Had a uncle who was a engineer for Triumph. I think he worked on the valves. Another friend, Sandy, and I painted houses 7 days a week for 10 hours a day to raise the dough. We all hoped on a plane, and stayed with Fred's uncle. There were 4 identical Bonnevilles waiting with consecutive plates. Off we went to Wales to break them in. We eventually disagreed where we wanted to go next. I was off on my own, which was the greatest part of the trip, because I had to meet so many strangers. I slept mostly on a tarp next to the bike in some field, with a shelter half from some GI's I met. I still have the back pack that I bungie d to a sissy bar, my road map, Let's Go Europe, the swiss flag I collected, and the road sign from France with my name on it. And of course the bike. The camera, swiss watch with great tooled leather band, done by a freak in Amsterdam, have been stolen. The bike was stolen twice too, but I got it back. So many memories, so many tales to tell. Some pictures too, but the best roll was left on some steps in St. Marks square. I had come from Yugoslavia and had not spoken English in two weeks, and I met a girl from Seattle and got carried away...Oh did I tell you about the time in Yugoslavia when I went off the road at 75 MPH hit a culvert and severely bent the front rim, borrowed a hammer from a farmer in the field and hammered that rim straight enough to ride? So many stories. I was so lucky.


Bob, Lifetime bike: '71 T120R, bought in '71 at Ken Heanes, England.
Re: Hard starting by kicking
btour #714260 11/08/17 11:16 am
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Great tale, that must have been an epic trip.
Go with your suspicions then, replace the whole Sparx set up if you dont trust it, being realistic , this isnt happening anytime soon. You are the one that doesnt want to start throwing money at it holus bolus. What are the open and closed resistance readings for your ignition switch. ? normally an EI that fgets an interrupted power supply will backfire a lot , if the switch volts are low because of bad contacts it might not do this once the machine is "buzzing" a little. I have no prior experience of Sparx, but others here have mentioned that they are not trustworthy, Boyer are still in business and i have a lot of faith in their kit.
Its been days now since this was asked and you still havent provided a definite answer. You wont let anyone else work on it, but you cant tell if the fluke meter battery is good or not. Doesnt look good.
If you wont watch the you tube link we are over here, I watched most of it and it is all good and will definitely help you out.

over to John H. The link John H posted on trouble shooting your EI is the best thing out there, if you follow all the tests he explains so well you should get to the root of it.

I am trying to follow a logical method here.
First establish you have a good battery , check

next establish the smoke from the battery can get all the way to the igniter with no restriction, not checked.
Once this is done follow Johns link.
Cant go forward till this is done.
You could fit a new EI unit and it still wont run, gottae make this check. if either the igntion switch or kill switch is faulty you can jump this with a hot wire, still not checked.

For me at home I would have got this far in about 5 minutes. Over the pond there seems to be an extreme time dilation factor.

I just spotted this chestnut
"I have a good timing light still in a box that lets you set the advance. No idea how to use it. Still in the box."
If so, who set up the Sparx unit and timed it in the first place?, this is something else you must be able to do if you want to get it running yourself.
This is another nail in the coffin for getting it running on your own before the end of the year.
Get your gravel shifted , tidy your workplace up, then spend the Winter figuring out the fluke, your electrics and ultimately how to use a strobe.

Last edited by gavin eisler; 11/08/17 12:19 pm.

71 Devimead, John Hill, John Holmes A65 750
56 Norbsa 68 Longstroke A65
Cagiva Raptor 650
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Re: Hard starting by kicking
btour #714264 11/08/17 12:11 pm
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It's gonna be funny when the problem ends up being fuel supply, trash in the tank, starts with a push because it sloshes the debris out of the way...
Nothing ever gets verified here, just conjecture and assumptions and a pissing contest. Take the bike to a mechanic please.


'68 Bonnie, '70 TR6r
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Re: Hard starting by kicking
btour #714265 11/08/17 12:24 pm
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You are probably spot on slofut, I know whatever i say will be wrong. lets hope bob can square things up.
I was already wrong about the coils . JH says I am wrong to suggest Voltage checks. It may well be a fuel issue. Bob has mentioned weird Black bits in his fuel already, maybe thats the clue.

i have zero experience with failed Boyer type boxes, for me they have been plug and play, John H 's write up looks like gospel to me, i cannot hold Bobs hand through this bit.
Up untill now I have been working along the lines " If you throw enough Kach at the wall some of it will stick", in this case the wall is overhung and coated in teflon, very little has stuck so far.

Last edited by gavin eisler; 11/08/17 2:54 pm.

71 Devimead, John Hill, John Holmes A65 750
56 Norbsa 68 Longstroke A65
Cagiva Raptor 650
MZ TS 250
The poster formerly known as Pod
Re: Hard starting by kicking
btour #714273 11/08/17 3:20 pm
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Morning everyone,

If it turns out to be fuel, nothing hurt, unless I destroy something with testing. And it sort of why I have been slow at it. Pondering, until I get a clear picture of this. It did take some time to dig the Sparx box connector out. I had to be very careful not to tug at it to much, and to make sure I did not disconnect some thing else in the process. Turns out it would have been faster to take side covers off, but I do get stubborn with an approach.

Gavin. Someone who really knows what they are doing, wired the sparx in. It was done at the time he rebuilt the engine, because I blew up a piston. At that time, both the bottom and top end were renewed. It was revealed that new points were not good, and so in went the sparx's. That was about 12k miles ago, and 8 years. He is not available right now.

I watched the video. It was pretty good. His was a series II mine is the first. But very much the same. Mine just doesn't zero sometimes, and leaves a fractional sometimes as high as .7, sometimes it zeros. It has an indicator for new battery. Mine is not displaying that need right now. The tricky part is the hold button in the selector, which allows you to view what was measured after the probes are released. That button will allow you to manually select a range if you want to. But most times the proper range is selected for you. So, it was something I did not remember. I am all good with it now. The hold button has to held down when first using the selector knob. Now how I got the 2.? reading at the switch at one point and now 0 is a concern for me. I might go back and do it again many times. Perhaps that switch has some intermittent problem, which might show up with continued testing. That might explain things. Its contacts may fall into proper place with slight vibration.

Or it maybe the pickup magnets. I measured the resistance of the pickup "coils" in line through the sparx connector, and got the 137 number John's page indicates. But his test for the magnets requires removing the plate. Perhaps there is a test that does not require that. Does anyone know? I would like to know about magnet strength and what would happen with weak magnets.

The first sparx plate was removed after the first season, because the contacts had rusted. A new one, that had the little nuts inside the plate soldered in place was put in its place. That one is the one that is currently in place. I have not visually inspected it yet. Just measured the resistance through the wires to it, and got 137. The sparx plate had an issue because people had asked them to leave those contact pins unsoldered, and thus they put nuts on the inside which caused more issues. Just mentioning that here.

Now, If I find the w/y lead to the box, And I measure the resistance of it back to the white lead of the wire going to key switch, shouldn't I get an indication of whether the kill switch is fine? And couldn't I measure the volts at that same w/y lead, back to ground and compare it to reading at battery, to do that same?


Bob, Lifetime bike: '71 T120R, bought in '71 at Ken Heanes, England.
Re: Hard starting by kicking
btour #714274 11/08/17 3:32 pm
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Oh, I think I have discovered how I can make the ring connector I want. If the old style Lucas coil connectors are available, a larger hole can be drilled, and there you go. Two spades available. Those are made of copper, and they resist vibration fatigue. I think they only break if you keep bending them. Wonder if they are still out there. If they will last for the coils, they will last for the battery. I would think, although perhaps not. The battery dances. But they could certainly be used for the SPG. Ring connection from battery with female spade, unto male spade of "fashioned" ring connector on SPG and battery installation a breeze.


Bob, Lifetime bike: '71 T120R, bought in '71 at Ken Heanes, England.
Re: Hard starting by kicking
btour #714280 11/08/17 4:40 pm
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"Now, If I find the w/y lead to the box, And I measure the resistance of it back to the white lead of the wire going to key switch, shouldn't I get an indication of whether the kill switch is fine?"
Yes, this a sound test even better go to the source, put one test lead in the fuse holder on the Bike ( not battery) side of the fuse holder , put the other lead on the white yellow lead to the box. This proves the whole chain in one go, with the ignition switch off this should read big numbers, with the ignition switch on this should read very close to zero, I would do this on the beep setting first, if your meter has crock clip ends that will hang on there own this is a lot easier, with the tails fitted you can operate the switches and hear the beep go on or off, test the ignition switch in all positions , and push the kill switch to check as well, if the beep gets " buzzy" look harder at the meter , poor connections will give an audible clue, one of the good features of the fluke.

" And couldn't I measure the volts at that same w/y lead, back to ground and compare it to reading at battery, to do that same?"

Yes, this a sound test, you will need to replace the fuse for this so make sure there are no exposed live tails that can short to earth. .

i hope someone else familiar with Sparx stuff chimes in here. Its unusual for magnets to fail, they dont like hits or heat, I know my Boyer magnets are not powerful but they work fine. The gap between the magnets and the coils has more effect , but if the bike ran OK before I dont see how that could have changed.

Putting your grounds/ earths on spade connectors at the battery is a poor idea, these are easy to pull off , not what you want, I showed you a good arrangement. Nothing can go wrong with all grounds crimped to one ring, fitting spade terminals is a failure waiting to happen.

If your 72 is as badly made as mine you will notice that the RHS and LHS side panels easily contact the coil mounting bracket, I had to cut scallops out of these parts so the coil bracket wouldnt rub, stuff like that encourages the battery to dance. The battery carrier rubbers should be checked, my battery is padded with sticky backed foam to make it a snug fit in the carrier.

if you get as far as that and have the battery carrier removed, ( means removing all the airbox stuff IIRC) you could mod the battery carrier to take the POD, mine is mounted on two 6 mm studs which allows the POD to bolt to the bottom of the carrier in free air between the mudguard and the oil spine. It leaves a lot more room under the seat .

That Sparx stuff doesnt sound very good, 2nd stator plate in 8 years, hmmm,follow JHs tests, the ones where you make it spark, thats a pretty good test.



Last edited by gavin eisler; 11/08/17 4:49 pm.

71 Devimead, John Hill, John Holmes A65 750
56 Norbsa 68 Longstroke A65
Cagiva Raptor 650
MZ TS 250
The poster formerly known as Pod
Re: Hard starting by kicking
btour #714289 11/08/17 5:54 pm
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Gavin,

Now I know how much you care, I care how much you know.

Its 71. I don't see the coils hitting side cover issue. Perhaps it is something I missed.

Bike still runs good, just won't kick start unless undo speed is applied at kick. That is why I suspect magnets/pick up. It was kick starting, something degraded. There were things, choke mounting screw, rearview mirror, etc. that came loose. I don't know why storage does that but it seems too.

Spark has been dependable. There was just a design flaw, I mentioned which was fixed. I don't know how long magnets last. If you put one on a piece of metal, I know it will eventually fall off. Probably depends on what type of magnet.

Yes I intended to put pod under batt box too.

Problem with sparx is the hunky connector which has to located betwix and between, on our bikes. They drill out the little bit of available plastic with half moons, which would have been available for proper holes. I had put off thinking this matter through. Then there is the matter of not allowing alternator wires near its wires. No idea what they had in mind with half moons. except between two bolts. Ugh holding the nut and bolt, and then having it not shake loose. It is a plug which should be readily accessible. I suppose there were issues having it un plug from the box itself. If they had just left enough plastic on the little shelf. I don't know I got to come up with something.


Bob, Lifetime bike: '71 T120R, bought in '71 at Ken Heanes, England.
Re: Hard starting by kicking
btour #714290 11/08/17 5:55 pm
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Oh, the beep is broken. Sadly.


Bob, Lifetime bike: '71 T120R, bought in '71 at Ken Heanes, England.
Re: Hard starting by kicking
btour #714293 11/08/17 6:33 pm
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Originally Posted by btour

Bike still runs good, just won't kick start unless undo speed is applied at kick. That is why I suspect magnets/pick up. It was kick starting, something degraded. There were things, choke mounting screw, rearview mirror, etc. that came loose. I don't know why storage does that but it seems too.


Bob, all kidding aside, I really think you may have more of a fuel problem here. If it was stored for very long I can say with confidence that the carbs will have issues, it's all too common. The tiny air bleeds for idle and start circuits get a little varnish in them, or the tinyiest particle from a dirty tank and that's all it takes. If you just drain the tank and put in fresh fuel you still have crud in the petcock and the carbs, and it doesn't have to be a lot, nor even obvious.

I guess even though I hate the stuff, the quick and dirty way to rule this out is to spray some starting fluid in the carbs and kick it. If it fires right off it's a fuel issue like I described.

And after being in storage any length of time, I wouldn't rest with just a quick take apart and spray can carb clean. I would insist on an ultrasonic clean in Berrymans Chem-Dip carb cleaner with the carb completely disassembled including welsh plugs, jets and anything that's screwed into the body. Then a meticulous probe and verification of all passages being clean and passing spray cleaner as they should. I've re-done quite a few carbs that were professionally "cleaned".

But one quick spray of starting fluid and a kick would tell you a lot.


'68 Bonnie, '70 TR6r
'74 CL360
trail 70's and minitrails
Re: Hard starting by kicking
btour #714295 11/08/17 6:40 pm
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"Problem with sparx is the hunky connector which has to located betwix and between, on our bikes. They drill out the little bit of available plastic with half moons, which would have been available for proper holes. I had put off thinking this matter through. Then there is the matter of not allowing alternator wires near its wires. No idea what they had in mind with half moons. except between two bolts. Ugh holding the nut and bolt, and then having it not shake loose. It is a plug which should be readily accessible. I suppose there were issues having it un plug from the box itself. If they had just left enough plastic on the little shelf. I don't know I got to come up with something."

Que? i have not got a scooby doo ,what you mean here.

"Bike still runs good, just won't kick start unless undo speed is applied at kick. " Have you had it running today?

What have we learned today.
Nothing.
Still dont know any continuity readings for kill switches or ignition switches, this is frustrating.


71 Devimead, John Hill, John Holmes A65 750
56 Norbsa 68 Longstroke A65
Cagiva Raptor 650
MZ TS 250
The poster formerly known as Pod
Re: Hard starting by kicking
btour #714311 11/08/17 9:36 pm
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Originally Posted by btour
Gavin,

Now I know how much you care, I care how much you know.

Its 71.


Gavin knows everything about 71 by hart.

Re: Hard starting by kicking
btour #714312 11/08/17 10:01 pm
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just sayin 72 to annoy you. like how you say yer bike is 49 YO.


71 Devimead, John Hill, John Holmes A65 750
56 Norbsa 68 Longstroke A65
Cagiva Raptor 650
MZ TS 250
The poster formerly known as Pod
Re: Hard starting by kicking
slofut #714313 11/08/17 10:03 pm
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Originally Posted by slofut
Originally Posted by btour

Bike still runs good, just won't kick start unless undo speed is applied at kick. That is why I suspect magnets/pick up. It was kick starting, something degraded. There were things, choke mounting screw, rearview mirror, etc. that came loose. I don't know why storage does that but it seems too.


Bob, all kidding aside, I really think you may have more of a fuel problem here. If it was stored for very long I can say with confidence that the carbs will have issues, it's all too common. The tiny air bleeds for idle and start circuits get a little varnish in them, or the tinyiest particle from a dirty tank and that's all it takes. If you just drain the tank and put in fresh fuel you still have crud in the petcock and the carbs, and it doesn't have to be a lot, nor even obvious.

I guess even though I hate the stuff, the quick and dirty way to rule this out is to spray some starting fluid in the carbs and kick it. If it fires right off it's a fuel issue like I described.

And after being in storage any length of time, I wouldn't rest with just a quick take apart and spray can carb clean. I would insist on an ultrasonic clean in Berrymans Chem-Dip carb cleaner with the carb completely disassembled including welsh plugs, jets and anything that's screwed into the body. Then a meticulous probe and verification of all passages being clean and passing spray cleaner as they should. I've re-done quite a few carbs that were professionally "cleaned".

But one quick spray of starting fluid and a kick would tell you a lot.


Good idea.


71 Devimead, John Hill, John Holmes A65 750
56 Norbsa 68 Longstroke A65
Cagiva Raptor 650
MZ TS 250
The poster formerly known as Pod
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