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Restoring (to a point) my '68 BSA Spitfire Mk4 #713577 11/02/17 1:29 pm
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David Kavanagh Offline OP
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I picked up this A65S and can't wait to get into it. It's been sitting for 40 years, so I obviously need to tackle *everything*. It has the 1977 registration sticker on the frame. BTW this '68 has '67 frame/engine numbers, so it's one of the 479 hybrids. Happy to post photos, but I'm posting videos as I get into this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qKkEdyKcVW0&index=7&list=PLT-TfyGi33ja2QicQfdpNflEKZBgSGRy7
Are there specific places that are recommended for parts? I already bought a couple things off eBay, but I know I'll need a lot more. I'm naturally skeptical, so I want to avoid crap parts.
My goals are primarily to make this bike safe and mechanically sound so I can ride it. Secondarily, I may make it prettier. Taking it as I go. Not sure how much "originality" I want to mess with on this bike.

David


'68 BSA Spitfire MkIV (w/ '67 numbers)
'81 Yamaha XJ550 Seca
'90 Yamaha FZR1000 EXUP
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Re: Restoring (to a point) my '68 BSA Spitfire Mk4 [Re: David Kavanagh] #713579 11/02/17 2:29 pm
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kommando Offline
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Nice find, it has the 68 TLS with the BSA rod damper forks so it being a 68 model year looks likely. Those fork bottoms were a one year only deal so never lose them, 69/70 had the Triumph shuttle valve bottoms. Watch out for the front brake cable, its very long and can catch under the front mudguard on bumps if its not fastened correctly, then when the suspension extends the brake comes on and stays on.

An example, cannot say if its correct.


[Linked Image]

Re: Restoring (to a point) my '68 BSA Spitfire Mk4 [Re: David Kavanagh] #713580 11/02/17 2:51 pm
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David Kavanagh Offline OP
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I'm told the engine turned over each year, till about 2 years ago. I have the tank off and will remove the pipes and carbs next so I can start taking the head off. I have the BSA workshop manual (it's super old!) and Haynes and Chilton as well (came w/ the bike). I'll see about getting this freed up, then get the engine out to really go through it. Need to check the bottom end and clean that sludge trap. I've watched a few videos related to that. I know the engine's been apart previously. The PO said guy before him had done bearing work, so I can't wait to see what state things are in. I have a box of "spares" that contains some valves and pistons.. yea, not sure what I'm in for, but I know it's all repairable, so in I go!


'68 BSA Spitfire MkIV (w/ '67 numbers)
'81 Yamaha XJ550 Seca
'90 Yamaha FZR1000 EXUP
Re: Restoring (to a point) my '68 BSA Spitfire Mk4 [Re: David Kavanagh] #713589 11/02/17 3:30 pm
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GrandPaul Online Content
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Quote
The PO said guy before him had done bearing work...


If it were me, I'd do a flush and tune, then take it out for a ride and see how it sounded and felt, before tearing into it.

Best advice would be to track down the PO that did the work and get some actual facts, before needlessly tearing down a formerly running engine that may simply need a good flush.

As far as parts, there are several reputable vendors that sponsor this forum, you can see links at the top of every page. Klempf's would probably be a good starting point for you.


Last edited by GrandPaul; 11/02/17 3:33 pm.

GrandPaul (does not use emoticons)
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Re: Restoring (to a point) my '68 BSA Spitfire Mk4 [Re: GrandPaul] #713599 11/02/17 4:18 pm
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David Kavanagh Offline OP
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The guy I bought it from had it registered in '77 (I have his registration card). I'd be surprise if I could track down someone who had it in the early 70!
The fiberglass tank seems in good shape. I think going through the fuel system to clean it up is important after all this time. Plus, not much oil left in it. bottom of the engine has some of it.
Plus, I don't trust anything after 40 years of sitting. Not going to ride the bike, but running the engine, maybe. Perhaps I'll get some penetrating fluid in the cylinders to see if they free up.


'68 BSA Spitfire MkIV (w/ '67 numbers)
'81 Yamaha XJ550 Seca
'90 Yamaha FZR1000 EXUP
Re: Restoring (to a point) my '68 BSA Spitfire Mk4 [Re: David Kavanagh] #713602 11/02/17 4:31 pm
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kevin roberts Offline
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Originally Posted by David Kavanagh
I'm told the engine turned over each year, till about 2 years ago.


it doesn't turn now? i suppose i'm mostly a gear head, but your machine looks really, really nice. if it's stuck, i would take it apart to the bottom end, and then come back up. they don't make any more of these, and it would be a shame to have a minor oil or bearing issue result in a blow up.

that's a beautiful bike, dude. there's only one machine left on my bucket list, and that's it.


every day you do not take a chance is a day of your life that you will never get back.
Re: Restoring (to a point) my '68 BSA Spitfire Mk4 [Re: David Kavanagh] #713609 11/02/17 4:39 pm
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Spitfire Ken Offline
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I LIKETHE FOLLOWING PARTS SUPPLIERS:

RABERS
BAXTER
British Only

WHEN YOU ARE RESTORING THE TANK SAVE THE stickers ON THE SIDE THE REPRDUCTION DO NOT LOOK LIKE THOS ALSO IF THE TANK IS IN THE ORIINAL JELL COAT AND HAS NEVER BEEN PAINTED TAKE IT TO SOMEONE WHO NOWS HOW TO BUFF CARS ETC. YOU CAN GET IS BUFFED OUT THEN TOUCH IT UP AS NECESSARY. YOU COULD BE SURPRISE HOW GOOD IT COULD TURM OUT, THE SAMP APPLIES TO THE SIDE COVERS.


I APOLOGIZE FOR THE USE OF CAPS. I CAN ONLY TYPE WITH MY RIGHT HAND SO USING THE SHIFT KEY IS BEYOND MY CAPABILITES.

The Devil is in the details.

1957 BSA A10 Spitfire Scrambler (numbers matching, very correct, very nice condition)
1965 BSA A65 Lightning Rocket "Clubman" (restored)
1966 BSA A65 Spitfire MK-II (restored)
1967 BSA A65 West Coast Hornet (under rstoration)
2001 Kawasaki W650
Re: Restoring (to a point) my '68 BSA Spitfire Mk4 [Re: David Kavanagh] #713627 11/02/17 7:00 pm
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Good find, in the vid I noticed a couple of things, some one painted the head black and lost the rear RHS rocker cover nut.
Look in the oil tank, if it looks V low expect to find all the lub oil in the Crank case sump, drain this via the sump plate, Wet sumping is pretty much a given with these motors if they sit for a long time. The condition of the sump plate screen and oil will hint towards the motor state.

The gearbox drains via a large hex plug on the bottom surface. The primary should drain from one of the lower screws ( they were painted red originally), the manual shows which one.

Looks like a very unmolested model, should clean up V well.


71 Devimead A65 750
56 Norbsa 68 Longstroke A65
Cagiva Raptor 650
MZ TS 250
The poster formerly known as Pod
Re: Restoring (to a point) my '68 BSA Spitfire Mk4 [Re: David Kavanagh] #713847 11/04/17 6:15 pm
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Mitch Offline
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these are the guys I considered to be the most reliable parts source.... http://www.britcycle.com/

Brit fiberglass does not play well with modern gasoline. I haven't had to deal with it in recent years. others will chime in

Re: Restoring (to a point) my '68 BSA Spitfire Mk4 [Re: David Kavanagh] #713848 11/04/17 6:17 pm
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David Kavanagh Offline OP
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I added some denatured alcohol to the gas tank. I want to thin out the really old fuel in there and dissolve built-up varnish.
I am not getting anything out of the petcocks. I feel like I should replace them since one is missing the handle anyway. I see they're screwed into a fitting on the bottom of the tank. Since the tank is fiberglass, I'm worried about applying too much torque removing them. Anybody have a link to a good assembly drawing? The shop manual I have isn't particularly detailed in this area. (just so I know what I'm dissembling).


'68 BSA Spitfire MkIV (w/ '67 numbers)
'81 Yamaha XJ550 Seca
'90 Yamaha FZR1000 EXUP
Re: Restoring (to a point) my '68 BSA Spitfire Mk4 [Re: David Kavanagh] #713855 11/04/17 7:26 pm
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gunner Offline
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Nice bike, I own a similar 1968 A65 in Firebird rather than Spitfire format, mine also has the two gallon tank.

After several years I changed the original fiberglass tank for an Indian sourced replacement. I still have the original tank and may reuse it in future as its a better fit than the Indian replacement.

Regarding the fuel taps, I wouldn't worry about using too much force when removing them, usually the fittings in fiberglass tanks are very secure unless the tank is seriously weakened from using modern petrol. If you're changing the fuel taps for new ones, I can recommend the BAP types which seem to be better built than some of the replacement versions available. I recently changed to using BAP fuel taps as the new ones I bought 5 years ago started leaking.

If you're going to reuse the tank then you need to get it sealed internally with a modern Phenol Novolac Resin to prevent modern fuel from attacking the fiberglass. There are many products available and the key to ensuring success is to get any previous coatings removed and ensure the tank is clean and dry inside. You have to be very careful to protect the external paint and its all to easy to to ruin the paint by spilling solvents etc.


1968 A65 Firebird
1967 B44 Shooting Star
1972 Norton Commando
Re: Restoring (to a point) my '68 BSA Spitfire Mk4 [Re: David Kavanagh] #713859 11/04/17 8:19 pm
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Another solution would be a hand made in England alloy tank http://www.holtworks.co.uk/contents/en-uk/d44.html


BSA B31 500 "Stargazer"
Greeves 200 "Blue Meanie"
Greeves 350
Greeves 360
Suzuki GSX1100 EFE "Sorcerers Apprentice"
GM500 sprint/LSR bike "Deofol"
Jawa 500 "Llareggub"
Aprilia RSV Mille "Lo Stregone"
'35 & '36 OK Supreme
Kawasaki ZZR1400 "Kuro no senshi"
Re: Restoring (to a point) my '68 BSA Spitfire Mk4 [Re: David Kavanagh] #713864 11/04/17 8:44 pm
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I Have 2 68 Spits, 1 I bought new in 1968 and 1 bought in New mexico 8 years ago/ Both I have Fully restored. I coated both tank interiors with a product from Blue Lightning in California. Made for fiberglass. Lots of products for metal tanks but make sure what you get is compatible with fiberglass.

Re: Restoring (to a point) my '68 BSA Spitfire Mk4 [Re: David Kavanagh] #713915 11/05/17 1:00 pm
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pushrod tom Offline
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Ummmm. Isn't denatured alcohol also known as Ethanol? If so it will eat through yer tank pretty quick!! PRT

Re: Restoring (to a point) my '68 BSA Spitfire Mk4 [Re: David Kavanagh] #713918 11/05/17 1:36 pm
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kommando Offline
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Denatured alcohol is known as methylated spirits in UK and is Ethanol with foul tasting additives so you do not drink it as a substitute for alcohol. I would not be adding it to a fibreglass tank. I use it to dewater steel tanks after derusting with acids and a water flush, it picks up the last bits of moisture and so drys out the tank.

Re: Restoring (to a point) my '68 BSA Spitfire Mk4 [Re: David Kavanagh] #713924 11/05/17 3:09 pm
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David Kavanagh Offline OP
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Well, dang. I thought I'd read somewhere about using denatured alcohol to loosen up the gunk. I have the petcocks out now.

[Linked Image]

I was thinking I should flush the tank, but not sure what with.

I would love to re-build these petcocks, if they're rebuildable. I'll go see if I can find parts.


'68 BSA Spitfire MkIV (w/ '67 numbers)
'81 Yamaha XJ550 Seca
'90 Yamaha FZR1000 EXUP
Re: Restoring (to a point) my '68 BSA Spitfire Mk4 [Re: David Kavanagh] #713930 11/05/17 3:40 pm
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David Kavanagh Offline OP
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This looks like what I have:
http://www.klempfsbritishparts.com/PETCOCK--LEVER-TYPE-0

Is it original? According to this PDF (Plate 22), it appears to be. https://partsbooks.britishonly.com/partsbooks/20-10306C.pdf

This also shows a different fuel line layout than I have on mine. I have one that looks like : http://www.klempfsbritishparts.com/LINE--FUEL-ASSY-0
There's a steep price to get an original replacement! I don't trust the old lines, so I'll want to do something and I'm trying to stay original.


'68 BSA Spitfire MkIV (w/ '67 numbers)
'81 Yamaha XJ550 Seca
'90 Yamaha FZR1000 EXUP
Re: Restoring (to a point) my '68 BSA Spitfire Mk4 [Re: David Kavanagh] #713942 11/05/17 5:49 pm
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David Kavanagh Offline OP
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The engine moves again! Sitting with pb-blaster in the cylinders did the trick. I put it in first, gently rolled it forward and back, then started hearing a sucking sound from the sparkplug holes!
Then, put in neutral and used the kick-start to gently move the engine, which it did just fine! Not wanting to do damage, I stopped after that, but this is good! I'll probably yank the sump cover next to see how gunky that is. Then, remove the exhaust and carbs. I need to get organized about parts labeling and storage next. As stuff comes off, the floor would get pretty cluttered!


'68 BSA Spitfire MkIV (w/ '67 numbers)
'81 Yamaha XJ550 Seca
'90 Yamaha FZR1000 EXUP
Re: Restoring (to a point) my '68 BSA Spitfire Mk4 [Re: David Kavanagh] #713952 11/05/17 7:19 pm
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Adam M. Offline
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Made my own fuel line for a few bucks, crazy for me to pay more than $100 for it.
I believe original petcocks were pull and push Evarts, they are OK when you buy new plungers with cork for them.
No sense for me to try to start it, after long seating bearings are probably done, not talking about seals and gaskets.
Everything must be checked, but perhaps not so many parts will need changing.

Re: Restoring (to a point) my '68 BSA Spitfire Mk4 [Re: David Kavanagh] #713956 11/05/17 7:40 pm
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gavin eisler Offline
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perhaps it wasnt seized, sometimes the kick start ratchet jams and gives the illusion of a stuck engine, the answer is usually to put the bike in gear and rock it.
These fuel taps are good, I use the same style, , the wee handle has a 2 BA thread. They will clean up very well, the taps are 1/4 BSP, and the tank has the usual 3/8 BSP with an adaptor.


71 Devimead A65 750
56 Norbsa 68 Longstroke A65
Cagiva Raptor 650
MZ TS 250
The poster formerly known as Pod
Re: Restoring (to a point) my '68 BSA Spitfire Mk4 [Re: David Kavanagh] #714186 11/07/17 3:39 pm
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David Kavanagh Offline OP
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My current thinking, look at contents of sump cover and then crank end-float to assess condition of lower part of the engine. If sump looks pretty clean and crank end-float within tolerances, get new fluids in the bike and go for a start?
Flushing was brought up. What's a good procedure to flush the old oil out? I can well imagine the carbs have varnish in them as well. I also need to get some ethanol free gas, which I can get locally.


'68 BSA Spitfire MkIV (w/ '67 numbers)
'81 Yamaha XJ550 Seca
'90 Yamaha FZR1000 EXUP
Re: Restoring (to a point) my '68 BSA Spitfire Mk4 [Re: David Kavanagh] #714561 11/10/17 10:50 pm
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gavin eisler Offline
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Its not so much the oil thats an issue, its the sludge trap, Do you feel lucky?Sitting for 40 years , drying out hmmm.
If you do feel lucky, drop the oil manifold ( needs new O rings to refit) flush the oil tank and lines, , refill with mineral 20- 50.
Flush the tank into a white container, look at the residue , sparklies are not a great sign. Remove the OPRV and check the strainer.
Sort of depends what position the crank was in and if it had wet sumped ( not really an if, it will have wet sumped), with a sump full of oil and submerged big ends , who knows?
if it goes wrong its not my fault. I would urge caution, at least one of the valves will need a refresh if its sat off its seat , a strip down would be safest.


71 Devimead A65 750
56 Norbsa 68 Longstroke A65
Cagiva Raptor 650
MZ TS 250
The poster formerly known as Pod
Re: Restoring (to a point) my '68 BSA Spitfire Mk4 [Re: David Kavanagh] #714568 11/10/17 11:41 pm
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kevin roberts Offline
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look at it this way?

you're going to have to get intimate with it sooner or later. if you take it down now, you'll be out tbe expense of gaskets, tabwashers and some seals. and you'll know everything you need to know about the inside.

if you just start it and the sludge comes adrift, you'll be taking it down then too, but with a less hopeful point of view about what you'll be finding.



every day you do not take a chance is a day of your life that you will never get back.
Re: Restoring (to a point) my '68 BSA Spitfire Mk4 [Re: David Kavanagh] #718053 12/07/17 5:53 pm
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David Kavanagh Offline OP
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Are these considered "proper" tires for this bike? https://www.eBay.com/itm/New-Tires-Tubes-Set-Dunlop-K70-3-25-19-4-00-18-Triumph-BSA-Norton/191391944447?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&_trksid=p2060353.m1438.l2649

I've decided to shoot for "great condition survivor" in my restoration. In other words, it won't be perfect, but it should be "like it was 40 years ago", or something like that. :-)


'68 BSA Spitfire MkIV (w/ '67 numbers)
'81 Yamaha XJ550 Seca
'90 Yamaha FZR1000 EXUP
Re: Restoring (to a point) my '68 BSA Spitfire Mk4 [Re: David Kavanagh] #718074 12/07/17 8:09 pm
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koan58 Offline
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At this stage I would be paranoid about the original petrol tank, if it's in good enough nick to be worth saving it is because it has not been exposed to ethanol fuel so far (I'm hoping there are no swellings showing even slightly in the outer gel coat, if there are it is probably too late). The worst thing you could do is give it ethanol in any shape or form. As said before, meths, industrial alcohol, denatured alcohol etc are almost entirely ethanol. This will start the process of dissolving the resin in the fibreglass.
I would suggest immediately drying the ethanol out of the tank by hairdryer or whatever, to get it warmed and keep it that way for as long as it takes so you can't smell alcohol from the filler. If you can blow air through the tap hole, even better (say if you have a compressor). I would be obsessively thorough with this.
It is any ethanol left in the fibreglass matrix, or even absorbed in the slightly softened surface of the resin, that when you apply the internal coating, will be sealed in and will inevitably come back to haunt you.
If there is old petrol gum dried out, mainly on the bottom of the tank (perhaps you saw some on the taps when you got them out), I would use the lowest ethanol petrol to give it a few hours to work, regularly shaking the tank about, then drain, and repeat several times with fresh fuel till it looks clear, then repeat the drying above. Again be obsessive, because you will probably only get one chance at this.
The sealants usually come with a solvent wash (acetone I think) which does a bit of cleaning and a bit of moisture removal, but it won't cope with much. So you need to give it all the help you can.

Re: Restoring (to a point) my '68 BSA Spitfire Mk4 [Re: David Kavanagh] #718103 12/08/17 1:59 am
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K70s were period tyres. similarly period are Dunlop TT100s ( AKA , K181), if I had the choice I would use TT100s. 40 years ago TT100s were a much better tyre than K70s.

Last edited by gavin eisler; 12/08/17 2:00 am.

71 Devimead A65 750
56 Norbsa 68 Longstroke A65
Cagiva Raptor 650
MZ TS 250
The poster formerly known as Pod
Re: Restoring (to a point) my '68 BSA Spitfire Mk4 [Re: David Kavanagh] #718117 12/08/17 12:26 pm
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Spitfire Ken Offline
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SORRY I DO NOT HAVE A PICTURE BUT LOOK GOOGLE SEARCH PETCOCK 23-1077 https://www.google.com/search?q=PETCOCK++23-1077&ie=&oe=
I HAVE USED THESE ON MY 66 SPITFIRE, THEY WORK WELL, LOOK VERY CLOSE AND ARE LESS MONEY THAN MOST OF THE ONE THAT HAVE A SIMILAR APPEARENCE. YOU WILL NEED TO USE A BUSHING WERE THEY MATE TO THE TANK.
FYI THE 66-68 SPITFIRE DID NOT USE PUSH PULL TYPE PETCOACK. THE PICTURE OF THE ONES YOU POSTED ARE CORRECT.


I APOLOGIZE FOR THE USE OF CAPS. I CAN ONLY TYPE WITH MY RIGHT HAND SO USING THE SHIFT KEY IS BEYOND MY CAPABILITES.

The Devil is in the details.

1957 BSA A10 Spitfire Scrambler (numbers matching, very correct, very nice condition)
1965 BSA A65 Lightning Rocket "Clubman" (restored)
1966 BSA A65 Spitfire MK-II (restored)
1967 BSA A65 West Coast Hornet (under rstoration)
2001 Kawasaki W650
Re: Restoring (to a point) my '68 BSA Spitfire Mk4 [Re: David Kavanagh] #718138 12/08/17 5:03 pm
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Fullminator Offline
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Dave, very nice bike find! I restored a 1966 Spitfire that was in a little worse shape than yours when I started. I tried using the fiberglass tank, just like yours, after sealing with the Caswell epoxy system. This worked for about a year. I have about 300-400 miles on the bike now. The tank started leaking at the seam between the top and the bottom pan. I ordered a Brooklands style alloy tank from Holtworks. (already mentioned in this thread by Andy Higham). Getting this new tank took over a year. I am in the process of painting it now. The bike has been sitting; I am anxious to ride the bike again. I also did a timing side bearing conversion, which seems to work well. Before I ride it again I want to install an oil filter kit. I am thinking one of the same type that is used on the Norton Commandos.
+1 to Spitfire Ken, about the petcocks. Your picture shows the same ones that came with my 66. I am sure they are originals, and very cool looking. Unfortunately mine were broken beyond repair, so I opted to replace with the BAP ones. If you can repair yours to make them serviceable I would definitely do it.
This forum is a wellspring of knowledge and good advice. Most any question will receive a smattering of ideas to solve it.
I wish you luck with your Spitfire.
Fullminator

Re: Restoring (to a point) my '68 BSA Spitfire Mk4 [Re: David Kavanagh] #777950 07/04/19 8:23 pm
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It has been a while, but home project kept me from the bike. I wanted the missus to be happy rather than annoyed about me working on it. Getting ready to take some things apart for real now. I found some SRM vids that seem just what I need as far as things to look out for. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PGSIWeW217Q
I did remove the drive-side cover and got vice-grips on the crank nut. I don't sense any kind of play in that end of the crank whatsoever. I did turn it a few times with the kick-start beforehand to make sure it wasn't just stuck.
Best thing now, get the exhaust off, drain the sump and get it out of the frame and on a table!
While I'm mentioning exhaust. I check e-bay and burgess mufflers in good shape are hard to find. Are Emgo any good? I want original look on the bike. Original parts preferred, but know exhausts don't last as a rule.


'68 BSA Spitfire MkIV (w/ '67 numbers)
'81 Yamaha XJ550 Seca
'90 Yamaha FZR1000 EXUP
Re: Restoring (to a point) my '68 BSA Spitfire Mk4 [Re: David Kavanagh] #777970 07/05/19 12:31 pm
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The Emgo ones are ok but fairly loud, the Brituro (recently out of business) made great silencers for these, crisp note and just the right amount of back pressure. With most others they have too large of an outlet pipe causing no backpressure.... in real terms you'll be up and down the box constantly becasue the bike won't pull the skin of a rice pudding...... comprared to a good silencer.


beerchug
Re: Restoring (to a point) my '68 BSA Spitfire Mk4 [Re: Allan Gill] #777972 07/05/19 1:40 pm
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Thanks for the info. Not much luck finding a Brituro yet, but this came up in a search: https://www.eBay.com/itm/Silencer-BSA-A50-A65-1963-70-Schalldampfer-68-2732-68-2733-68-2728-68-2785-96007/173744267881?hash=item2873f72269:g:b4UAAOSw0TBcP08E but can't tell who makes that.


'68 BSA Spitfire MkIV (w/ '67 numbers)
'81 Yamaha XJ550 Seca
'90 Yamaha FZR1000 EXUP
Re: Restoring (to a point) my '68 BSA Spitfire Mk4 [Re: David Kavanagh] #777973 07/05/19 1:53 pm
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Can't tell who made them either but in one of the pics you can see a Federal sticker warning that they are not to be modified or tampered with. Does that mean they are original BSA ?

Re: Restoring (to a point) my '68 BSA Spitfire Mk4 [Re: David Kavanagh] #777975 07/05/19 2:55 pm
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As you don't yet fully know the state of the motor and are planning on pulling it out, I would recommend you wait on any exhaust-related expenditures. You're likely to have a bunch of unplanned expenses once you start digging into the engine, and who knows how long all of that will take. If it were me, I would deal with getting the motor going, then deal with "must haves" like tires and suspension, electrical issues, etc, and I would leave cosmetic issues for last.'

You might hit a hurdle that stalls the project and the last thing you want is a brand new set of pipes and mufflers pitting in the corner of your shop as you wait for other work to complete.

Re: Restoring (to a point) my '68 BSA Spitfire Mk4 [Re: MarcB] #777977 07/05/19 3:03 pm
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I suppose. I know that some things are hard to come by and I've done a little shopping for things I know I'll need. The shorty mufflers on the bike right now are pretty crap.


'68 BSA Spitfire MkIV (w/ '67 numbers)
'81 Yamaha XJ550 Seca
'90 Yamaha FZR1000 EXUP
Re: Restoring (to a point) my '68 BSA Spitfire Mk4 [Re: David Kavanagh] #777984 07/05/19 7:43 pm
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K70 on the rear is OK, because that was where the K70 was designed to be.

K70 on the FRONT, however, is crap.

The K70 tread design does not like to be "pushed' by the front fork, and will wear with a "cupping" pattern.
Dunlop ribbed front tires were still in use at that time, and handle well.
I think you should consider a Dunlop or Avon rib-pattern front tire for that bike.

Re: Restoring (to a point) my '68 BSA Spitfire Mk4 [Re: David Kavanagh] #777985 07/05/19 7:58 pm
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I second what Irish Swede sez about rib on front I have used both rib and k70 o0n my 68A65 bitsa and rib feels much better and lasts longer


1972 Triumph T120
1968 BSA A65
1968 MGB Roadster
1979 Chevrolet Camaro Berlinetta
1969 Honda Mini Trail
1939 farmall f30 tractor
2004 Honda Shadow Aero
1972 BSA Thunderbolt
1975 yamaha xs650b
1972 Norton commando
2 olive drab WWII military bicycle replicas
Re: Restoring (to a point) my '68 BSA Spitfire Mk4 [Re: kommando] #778015 07/06/19 6:57 am
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Originally Posted by kommando
Can't tell who made them either but in one of the pics you can see a Federal sticker warning that they are not to be modified or tampered with. Does that mean they are original BSA ?


It’s not factory, factory silencers tend to have date codes stamped on the silencer bracket.

I’d tend to buy the hard to find parts first, piece the bike together bit by bit until you have a complete bike. Then take it all apart and do the restoration. Knowing that the big stuff is all sorted. Most electrical components and everything for the engine is pretty easy to obtain.


beerchug
Re: Restoring (to a point) my '68 BSA Spitfire Mk4 [Re: David Kavanagh] #778021 07/06/19 12:12 pm
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On my bike, the silencers are the only thing I know I need to replace (other than the odd nut and bolt, and some rubber parts, which I bought as well). If I could find a nicer chain guard... I know... :-)


'68 BSA Spitfire MkIV (w/ '67 numbers)
'81 Yamaha XJ550 Seca
'90 Yamaha FZR1000 EXUP
Re: Restoring (to a point) my '68 BSA Spitfire Mk4 [Re: David Kavanagh] #778059 07/07/19 7:31 am
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Chain guards from Burton Bike Bits are nice and triple Plate chrome too


beerchug
Re: Restoring (to a point) my '68 BSA Spitfire Mk4 [Re: David Kavanagh] #778657 07/14/19 10:22 pm
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'68 BSA Spitfire MkIV (w/ '67 numbers)
'81 Yamaha XJ550 Seca
'90 Yamaha FZR1000 EXUP
Re: Restoring (to a point) my '68 BSA Spitfire Mk4 [Re: David Kavanagh] #778706 07/15/19 12:51 pm
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Regarding your carbs, remove the tops. That will allow you to move the carb bodies out of the way and then you can remove the slides from the end of the cables. The cables themselves might not need to be replaced but it's highly likely the carbs will need work so you'll be part of the way there.

Personally, I remove the top end, transmission, and clutch before pulling the engine out of the frame. This does 2 things: 1. makes the whole thing lighter, and 2. makes a great engine stand. This comes especially handy for things like using the kickstart to pop the head and cylinders off. My method involves stuffing soft rope down the plug holes and using the pistons to break the seal on the head gasket and cylinder base gasket. This prevents the temptation to hammer against the head and barrel fins and, since you've got the engine unstuck, this should work for you as well. Let me know if you want more info on this.

Electrically, you'll need to unhook the coils, points, and alternator. The coils need to come out in order to more easily maneuver the engine out of place.

Good progress so far.

Re: Restoring (to a point) my '68 BSA Spitfire Mk4 [Re: MarcB] #778711 07/15/19 1:22 pm
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Thanks, Marc. I previously tried to get the rocker box cover off and it hit the frame. I'll give it another try. I agree that a lighter engine will be easier to remove from the frame!


'68 BSA Spitfire MkIV (w/ '67 numbers)
'81 Yamaha XJ550 Seca
'90 Yamaha FZR1000 EXUP
Re: Restoring (to a point) my '68 BSA Spitfire Mk4 [Re: David Kavanagh] #778719 07/15/19 4:40 pm
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Hmm, I went back and re-watched your video... nothing appears peculiar on the right side that should prevent you from getting the rocker cover off. The front-center stud has to come out to get the head off, but the cover shouldn't be a problem. You gotta be able to check valve lash without pulling the motor wink

Re: Restoring (to a point) my '68 BSA Spitfire Mk4 [Re: David Kavanagh] #778726 07/15/19 5:28 pm
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It was my bad. I clearly didn't try hard enough. Came right off this time and I'm exited to see the rockers, etc. BTW, did many of these come with chromed parts, or could mine have been chromed by the PO? My rocker cover and side covers were chromed and it's all shot to hell right now, except on the inside! Debating if I will be able to clean those up or just should look for good used covers.

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'68 BSA Spitfire MkIV (w/ '67 numbers)
'81 Yamaha XJ550 Seca
'90 Yamaha FZR1000 EXUP
Re: Restoring (to a point) my '68 BSA Spitfire Mk4 [Re: David Kavanagh] #778729 07/15/19 5:44 pm
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Not sure if chromed alloy engine covers was ever an option for A65's and may have been done by a previous owner. It's quite common for chrome to peel off alloy after a while, easiest option is to simply buy new covers and polish them as I don't think it would be simple to get the old chrome off without causing further damage.


1968 A65 Firebird
1967 B44 Shooting Star
1972 Norton Commando
Re: Restoring (to a point) my '68 BSA Spitfire Mk4 [Re: David Kavanagh] #778733 07/15/19 6:13 pm
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Aluminium is very pourus which is why it doesn’t last, but the factory didn’t do anything like that. They didn’t use chrome for bling but more as a good corrosion resistor. (Fuel tanks were possibly an exception to the bling rule)

As gunner says. Look for some new covers. The damage done to the ally by the caroming and de-caroming process won’t leave you much worth polishing.


beerchug
Re: Restoring (to a point) my '68 BSA Spitfire Mk4 [Re: Allan Gill] #778739 07/15/19 8:15 pm
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Originally Posted by Allan Gill
The Emgo ones are ok but fairly loud, the Brituro (recently out of business) made great silencers for these, crisp note and just the right amount of back pressure. With most others they have too large of an outlet pipe causing no backpressure.... in real terms you'll be up and down the box constantly becasue the bike won't pull the skin of a rice pudding...... comprared to a good silencer.


Hi Allan, I bought mufflers for my Spitfire from Armours. Very nice, perfect finish. Are they any good?

Re: Restoring (to a point) my '68 BSA Spitfire Mk4 [Re: David Kavanagh] #778740 07/15/19 8:43 pm
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Originally Posted by David Kavanagh
It was my bad. I clearly didn't try hard enough. Came right off this time and I'm exited to see the rockers, etc. BTW, did many of these come with chromed parts, or could mine have been chromed by the PO? My rocker cover and side covers were chromed and it's all shot to hell right now, except on the inside! Debating if I will be able to clean those up or just should look for good used covers.

Wow, looks pretty dry in there. I guess it really may not have run since 1977.

I noticed the center-front stud is already removed in the picture. Did you remove it or did it come out on its own? Be careful with that one as there isn't a ton of meat on the center tower, and it holds the rocker shaft in place so you don't want it splitting. Since the rocker cover doesn't bottom out on those points, tightening the center nuts has a vague feel and shouldn't be over-tightened. They're also likely to leak as there isn't a gasket in that area, and BSA attempted to address this with an alloy washer and acorn nut. It's usually best to seal using a sealing washer and regular nut.

To remove the head, you'll need to remove the exhaust rockers to access the bolts directly under it. Keep track of the order of the washers and thackery (spring) washers when you do this. The intake rockers can stay in place, though you'll want to pull them if you plan on replacing the valves or guides. I would definitely recommend stripping the paint off the head. That's not anything BSA ever offered.

Regarding the chrome, that also was never offered from BSA. I recently picked up a rocker cover for $25 and an inner and outer timing cover for about $50, so you may be able to pick up all 3 for less than $100.

Re: Restoring (to a point) my '68 BSA Spitfire Mk4 [Re: Airman49] #778790 07/16/19 10:45 am
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Originally Posted by Airman49
Originally Posted by Allan Gill
The Emgo ones are ok but fairly loud, the Brituro (recently out of business) made great silencers for these, crisp note and just the right amount of back pressure. With most others they have too large of an outlet pipe causing no backpressure.... in real terms you'll be up and down the box constantly becasue the bike won't pull the skin of a rice pudding...... comprared to a good silencer.


Hi Allan, I bought mufflers for my Spitfire from Armours. Very nice, perfect finish. Are they any good?



They look good and probably the best chrome on the market, but I found you have to really push them towards the frame to allow the kickstart to clear, they were also quite restrictive for me, whilst sounded good gave poor throttle response. That said now brituro have gone they are probably the best available.


beerchug
Re: Restoring (to a point) my '68 BSA Spitfire Mk4 [Re: David Kavanagh] #778849 07/16/19 7:14 pm
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Armours silencers ordered + brackets and clamps. just need some more nuts and bolts. Already found one or two non-whitworth bolts on the bike. Too bad those assortments are a bit spendy. I'll probably buy some anyway so I don't get nickled and dimed on individual parts.


'68 BSA Spitfire MkIV (w/ '67 numbers)
'81 Yamaha XJ550 Seca
'90 Yamaha FZR1000 EXUP
Re: Restoring (to a point) my '68 BSA Spitfire Mk4 [Re: MarcB] #778852 07/16/19 7:31 pm
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@MarkB mentioned the front stud in the rocker box. That came out with the nut and is in my the bin with those parts. Threads look good (phew!)


'68 BSA Spitfire MkIV (w/ '67 numbers)
'81 Yamaha XJ550 Seca
'90 Yamaha FZR1000 EXUP
Re: Restoring (to a point) my '68 BSA Spitfire Mk4 [Re: David Kavanagh] #778854 07/16/19 7:32 pm
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I recently ordered hardware from British Tools & Fasteners and thought their prices were fair. They're in Lyons NY so may be pretty local to you.

Alternatively, whenever I order from CBS (site sponsor) I throw some random needed hardware into the order. Free shipping FTW.

Re: Restoring (to a point) my '68 BSA Spitfire Mk4 [Re: David Kavanagh] #778868 07/16/19 9:26 pm
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There might only be one thread on the bike which is whitworth or supposed to be (one of the cylinder head studs should be whit in the head and bsf at the nut end). The rest should be BSF or CEI (aka BSCy)

Might sound like I’m being picky but if you buy “whitworth” bolts which won’t be cheap you’ll be wondering why they don’t fit anything and why the heads are bigger than the shank.


beerchug
Re: Restoring (to a point) my '68 BSA Spitfire Mk4 [Re: Allan Gill] #778883 07/16/19 11:53 pm
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Maybe I need to be educated. I bought Whitworth wrenches and sockets so I had the right tools for the bolt heads and nuts on this bike. I understand that there is also BSF and BSW and those are fine and wide(?) threads. I also understood that whitworth sizes were measured across the flats of the hex component, rather than shaft diameter. Beyond that, I guess I'm not sure what I'm facing here. :-)


'68 BSA Spitfire MkIV (w/ '67 numbers)
'81 Yamaha XJ550 Seca
'90 Yamaha FZR1000 EXUP
Re: Restoring (to a point) my '68 BSA Spitfire Mk4 [Re: David Kavanagh] #778894 07/17/19 1:41 am
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David, sounds as if a bit of thread/fastener education is needed here if you don't mind me saying so.
You can try the internet of course but British Tools and Fasteners are in northern NYS--their website is pretty good and they are helpful.
HTH

Re: Restoring (to a point) my '68 BSA Spitfire Mk4 [Re: David Kavanagh] #778932 07/17/19 12:07 pm
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Originally Posted by David Kavanagh
I also understood that whitworth sizes were measured across the flats of the hex component, rather than shaft diameter. Beyond that, I guess I'm not sure what I'm facing here. :-)



You are correct, Whitworth bolts are measured at 1 flat of the hex, however every other bolt in the world is measure from the unthreaded part of the shank, it just so happens that a BS (be it BSF, BSC (british standard coarse) CEI/BSCy) all have a same head size as whitworth, although you will see on a decent set of spanners that a 1/4W will also say 5/16BS next to the 1/4W stamping. many dont however and it doesn't mean the tools are bad, just they are probably newer tools and the maker hasnt given all the info. By the time the bikes done you'll be selecting the correct spanner blindfolded.


beerchug
Re: Restoring (to a point) my '68 BSA Spitfire Mk4 [Re: David Kavanagh] #778934 07/17/19 12:28 pm
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Originally Posted by Allan Gill
every other bolt in the world is measure from the unthreaded part of the shank


So are Whitworth bolts.


The width of a flat on a Whitworth bolt head is the same as the shank diameter.

BS uses heads one Whitworth size smaller than a Whitworth bolt.


Amateur Loctite enthusiast.
Re: Restoring (to a point) my '68 BSA Spitfire Mk4 [Re: David Kavanagh] #779001 07/18/19 2:57 am
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'68 BSA Spitfire MkIV (w/ '67 numbers)
'81 Yamaha XJ550 Seca
'90 Yamaha FZR1000 EXUP
Re: Restoring (to a point) my '68 BSA Spitfire Mk4 [Re: David Kavanagh] #779021 07/18/19 6:34 am
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Cool! If you have those down pipes de-chromed you can weld the dents up, snd them back and you’ll never know they were dented. Obviously have them chromed again.


That cylinder head will look sweet vapour blasted also. Keep up the good work!


beerchug
Re: Restoring (to a point) my '68 BSA Spitfire Mk4 [Re: David Kavanagh] #779188 07/20/19 2:25 am
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I set up an elevated work surface in the garage and organized the parts I have off. cleaned up the air cleaners and ordered new filter elements (the foam was falling apart). Should I use new foam around the original cores or is a paper element just fine? I've ordered paper elements and AMAL Concentric rebuild kits from CBS.
I also should have looked at the factory workshop manual I have sooner. Some questions were answered there! I'll definitely work through that in any further work I do.


'68 BSA Spitfire MkIV (w/ '67 numbers)
'81 Yamaha XJ550 Seca
'90 Yamaha FZR1000 EXUP
Re: Restoring (to a point) my '68 BSA Spitfire Mk4 [Re: David Kavanagh] #779210 07/20/19 7:02 am
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Paper filters work great unless you are subject to a lot of rain? Soon as they get wet they are ruined. I used to buy K and N TB100 filters, they squash into the pancake housing a little but work great and last a lifetime.


beerchug
Re: Restoring (to a point) my '68 BSA Spitfire Mk4 [Re: David Kavanagh] #779260 07/21/19 2:01 am
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Ready to get the head of next!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S9Au80QbjbU


'68 BSA Spitfire MkIV (w/ '67 numbers)
'81 Yamaha XJ550 Seca
'90 Yamaha FZR1000 EXUP
Re: Restoring (to a point) my '68 BSA Spitfire Mk4 [Re: David Kavanagh] #779285 07/21/19 12:34 pm
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Nice vid.
Barrel base flange nuts, not unusual to find slack, after a rebuild they take time to settle in , mine need nipping up at 500 and 1000 miles after being disturbed.

Carb bodies, strip bare and soak in vinegar/ coca cola/ rhubarb juice ( whatever is most convenient), to loosen up oxides and crud. Order #78 drills to clean pilot jets.

Head steady , needs to be removed to lift head.

Chrome on cases, worth trying a wire wheel to remove old chrome, you might get lucky.Polish to finish off.

End float, with the sump plate removed and a clock gauge on the crank end ,try prying the flywheel with a tyre iron , right and left, correct endfloat is 1.5 to 3 thousands of an inch.

Carb slides, twistgrip and cables, remove and bag, label slides for right and left.

The lack of percebtible end float is good, a badly worn thrust washer will allow the crank to audibly clunk when push pulled.

Before attempting to remove the inner timing chest make sure the two hidden lower screws are out, and the tacho drive spindle is removed.
Hing in there


71 Devimead A65 750
56 Norbsa 68 Longstroke A65
Cagiva Raptor 650
MZ TS 250
The poster formerly known as Pod
Re: Restoring (to a point) my '68 BSA Spitfire Mk4 [Re: David Kavanagh] #779306 07/21/19 5:25 pm
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Thanks, Gavin. I'll get after some of those things you listed. Got the head off and here's a look:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=idOjpie3RIk&list=PLT-TfyGi33jabaHsVdDWFrrAMvz7J9hYP&index=7


'68 BSA Spitfire MkIV (w/ '67 numbers)
'81 Yamaha XJ550 Seca
'90 Yamaha FZR1000 EXUP
Re: Restoring (to a point) my '68 BSA Spitfire Mk4 [Re: David Kavanagh] #779313 07/21/19 7:55 pm
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And the cylinders are off as well: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZLZ...HsVdDWFrrAMvz7J9hYP&index=9&t=0s

a bit of play in the big ends. I hope the journals are in good shape and I'll just need new bearing shells. I'll find out once I get the crank out!


'68 BSA Spitfire MkIV (w/ '67 numbers)
'81 Yamaha XJ550 Seca
'90 Yamaha FZR1000 EXUP
Re: Restoring (to a point) my '68 BSA Spitfire Mk4 [Re: David Kavanagh] #779316 07/21/19 8:18 pm
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Great videos!

At +.020” it’s most likely to be its first rebore, pistons are sometimes found like 30 thou. But more commonly they are in 20 thou increments. It looks like you have 9:1’s fitted. They would have originally been 10.5:1 is really what makes the spitfire a spitfire and not a lightning. Poor gasoline won’t help though however if you do find a set of 10.5:1’s then removing the sharp corners of the pistons will eliminate any pinging (also known as radius-ing)

A decent bore gauge is expensive, micrometers would be a better companion you can then compare wear of the pistons if any and then using a feeler gauge get a rough measurement of wear on the bore, more gap front to back then at the sides. Expect to see anything up to about .006” with a feeler gauge. If there’s more then start thinking of a rebore, but if I’m doubt have someone who does this professionally do the check. If they are getting the work for a home or a rebore they may do this for free.

It’s common to fit washers to parts on the bike but after seeing some very good unrestored examples there are a lot of washers lacking from the bikes, whether it be engine or cycle parts, in many cases it helps the nuts from coming loose by biting into the surface, at expense of ruing the finish. If you choose to use washers, I use stainless flat washers. Don’t use spring washers on anything that requires a torque setting. Barrel nuts (for pre70 bikes) at 20-22 ft pound. This is easier done with the motor out of the bike,

Keep up the great work!


beerchug
Re: Restoring (to a point) my '68 BSA Spitfire Mk4 [Re: David Kavanagh] #779326 07/21/19 9:36 pm
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Please, wrap the con rods in rags/ bubble wrap. cardboard, anything to stop them rattling off the case mouth. I was wincing.
And plug the open case mouth, when you find stuff in the bottom its good to know if it was there all the time , dont let bits fall in.
Also make sure you cannot turn the motor over with the pistons exposed, they can catch on the case lip studs and break.

Pistons look pretty fresh.

Piston side to side is normal, to free the stuck rings heat the piston crown with a small flame, douse with a wet cloth, repeat until rings pop out.
The wrist pins/ gudgeon pins in the pistons will push free after the outer circlips are removed and the pistons are warmed up.
Big end side to side rock is fairly normal , its up and down that really matters, there is always some side to side.

The motor looks like its done very few miles since its last build up, looking at the carbon.
Head gasket on the drive side looks like it was passing.

i suspect this motor top end was refreshed , then the rebuilder failed to follow up with retorqueing the head and barrel flange as it settled down.

The timing side bore with the stuck rings, has corrosion witness marks, these might clean up with a hone.

before stripping the head pour some alchohol in each port and look for leakage around the respective valves.

A simple valve spring compressor can be made with a G clamp and a ~ two inch piece of tube that is just under the top collar diameter with a cutout to allow access to the keepers.

all you need to estimate bore wear is a piston ring , piston and feeler gauges.
Insert the bare ring , not fitted to piston into the unworn lower bore , use the piston to square it up, measure the ring end gap with the feeler gauges.

Do the same thing with the same ring about one inch down from the top of the bore, this is the point of max wear, the bigger the difference in the ring end gap the more worn the bore. If its about 5 thou or less then I would be happy , more than that you may need better measuring instruments to be sure you need a rebore.

Last edited by gavin eisler; 07/21/19 9:46 pm.

71 Devimead A65 750
56 Norbsa 68 Longstroke A65
Cagiva Raptor 650
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Re: Restoring (to a point) my '68 BSA Spitfire Mk4 [Re: gavin eisler] #779340 07/22/19 12:41 am
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Originally Posted by Allan Gill
They would have originally been 10.5:1 is really what makes the spitfire a spitfire and not a lightning. Poor gasoline won’t help though however if you do find a set of 10.5:1’s then removing the sharp corners of the pistons will eliminate any pinging (also known as radius-ing)

Not in '68. Pistons were the same as Lighting by then. Carbs and bodywork were all that was left of the Spitfire by then.

Originally Posted by Allan Gill
Barrel nuts (for pre70 bikes) at 20-22 ft pound. This is easier done with the motor out of the bike,

I do this by feel, as only a wrench fits in most of the nuts. No washers used.


Originally Posted by gavin eisler

A simple valve spring compressor can be made with a G clamp and a ~ two inch piece of tube that is just under the top collar diameter with a cutout to allow access to the keepers.

I recently picked this one up from Amazon:
8MILELAKE Valve Spring Compressor Automotive Repair Tool

It's only $18 and is a bit flimsy but you're only doing 4 valves smile

Great progress.

One weird thing to keep in mind regarding the early 932 carbs: the very early ones had a removable pilot jet screwed into the bottom of the carb bodies. Later ones have a pressed-in pilot bush inside the body. Finally, the new premiere carbs have a removable screwed-in jet accessible outside the bowl.

What's weird is that, after the change to the pressed-in bush, AMAL did not change the threaded hole in the body so it's actually possible to have both in place. If the carb bodies aren't original, it's possible whoever replaced them wasn't aware of the change and moved the jet from the old carbs to the new unnecessarily.

There's also a change in jet holder, needle jet, and needle that took place around '69. I've got a bulletin on that I can dig up if you'd like. When ordering new parts, you'll need to know what you're looking at to ensure you don't mismatch parts.

Lastly, ethanol fuel does a number of fiberglass tanks and will clog up the pilot jet/bush. Get a different tank and/or get it lined by someone who really knows what they're doing. I also recommend the premiere carbs because of the ease in clearing the pilot jet as well as the addition of anodized slides and better floats.

Marc

Re: Restoring (to a point) my '68 BSA Spitfire Mk4 [Re: David Kavanagh] #779351 07/22/19 6:57 am
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I was unsure about the pistons for 68’ but thanks for the clarification.

Worth noting that in 68 all Concentrics were 2 stroke carbs. So apart from the pilot jet they also had the wrong needle jet, spray tube, jet holder, and needle. You might also have float bowls without the drain plug. (Just noticed as already pointed out by Marc)

As Mark says the jetting changed by 69’. The above also changed too however the spitfire never received those jetting changes as they stopped production with the 932s mounted to A65’s after 68’. Also if you ordered a brand new set of AMAL’s premier or otherwise, they would come jetted as per 2 stroke spec.

The good news is, if you compare the jetting of the time to the lightning then the only change I remember was using a 107 needle jet. By 69 the Lightning’s leaned off at every point, the 2.5 slide went to a 3, the middle clip position for the needle was now in clip 1 (highest clip position- lowering the needle, but it’s also a different needle than 68 and the main jet went to 180 from 190.

You could order 932’s jetted as per a Lightning but with a 107 needle jet also. That way you can find out what the bike actually wants, plus it will run and pull more cleanly than if it had the 68 jetting still.

Last edited by Allan Gill; 07/22/19 6:58 am.

beerchug
Re: Restoring (to a point) my '68 BSA Spitfire Mk4 [Re: David Kavanagh] #779373 07/22/19 12:34 pm
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After reading the note about the pistons, I compared to the original pistons that came along with the bike (it has a box of curious spares, maybe I'll do a video, going through that!).
I compared the distance from the gudgeon pin to the dome and the shape of the top of the pistons... AFAIK, they seemed to be the same in those respects. I also was going through the owner's manual the other day, specifically looking for how the Spitfires were different from the other bikes and the 32mm carbs were the one thing I found. Where the cams any different?

Attached Files
Screen Shot 2019-07-22 at 8.31.14 AM.jpg (36.91 KB, 121 downloads)

'68 BSA Spitfire MkIV (w/ '67 numbers)
'81 Yamaha XJ550 Seca
'90 Yamaha FZR1000 EXUP
Re: Restoring (to a point) my '68 BSA Spitfire Mk4 [Re: David Kavanagh] #779376 07/22/19 1:19 pm
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Cams are the same as A65 L. Big carbs , alloy rims and different fuel tanks are the main
differences between Spitfires and Lightnings. other details like side panel badges and control levers are maybe not so significant.
According to R Bacon only the MKII had 10.5 to one pistons and GP carbs, MKIII and MkIV were 10:1.
All 650 twins had the "Spitfire" cam after 1968.


71 Devimead A65 750
56 Norbsa 68 Longstroke A65
Cagiva Raptor 650
MZ TS 250
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Re: Restoring (to a point) my '68 BSA Spitfire Mk4 [Re: David Kavanagh] #779387 07/22/19 3:48 pm
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You are much better off with lower compression pistons taking into consideration current gas quality and less vibes from the engine.
It looks like somebody refreshed a top end, but made some mistakes doing it, not re torquing it and using too fine hone what caused primary side cylinder to get glazed and let oil pass to the combustion chamber. This is why you have so much oil around a head gasket, shiny cylinder on primary side and no carbon on it's piston.
These pistons look to me like original BSA pistons, if this is true they are much better quality than Hepolite and much lighter from current Taiwanese pistons, in short very worth using in your bike if clearances between them and bores are still good.
I hope your top end didn't do too many miles and needs just much rougher hone, new piston rings and that's it.
A big question is quality of the valves / guides and their seats, but I hope those were refreshed as well.
Big and clearances don't look too bad, I'd just change shells to new ones and check them with plastigage.
After cleaning grease trap in a crank it is important to install proper oil filter on a return oil line - this will make your engine much more robust in a long run.

Re: Restoring (to a point) my '68 BSA Spitfire Mk4 [Re: David Kavanagh] #779395 07/22/19 4:22 pm
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I assume I'm looking for a hone similar to this: https://www.grainger.com/product/WE...Search-_-IDPPLARECS&cm_vc=IDPPLARECS
What is the proper grit to make the proper crosshatch I'd like to see?
I've remove the piston rings carefully. The oil ring for #1 broke but the other 2 seem in good shape. The upper rings on the #2 piston have some corrosion and is likely why they were stuck. Can I clean those up, or just buy a whole set of rings and be done with it?


'68 BSA Spitfire MkIV (w/ '67 numbers)
'81 Yamaha XJ550 Seca
'90 Yamaha FZR1000 EXUP
Re: Restoring (to a point) my '68 BSA Spitfire Mk4 [Re: David Kavanagh] #779399 07/22/19 5:47 pm
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I wouldn't mess with the old rings. You want a new set of Hastings rings to mate up with the cylinder wall, otherwise you'll chase your tail trying to get a good seal.

The ball hones are ok but getting the crosshatch pattern takes a steady hand. I think you want a coarser grit than what you linked. Mine were done between 150 and 180 grit.

Re: Restoring (to a point) my '68 BSA Spitfire Mk4 [Re: MarcB] #779407 07/22/19 6:27 pm
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I imagined doing something like what's done on this Jag engine near the beginning of this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DCU1lWPYlPQ
He seems to get good results.


'68 BSA Spitfire MkIV (w/ '67 numbers)
'81 Yamaha XJ550 Seca
'90 Yamaha FZR1000 EXUP
Re: Restoring (to a point) my '68 BSA Spitfire Mk4 [Re: David Kavanagh] #779433 07/22/19 11:11 pm
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Originally Posted by David Kavanagh
I imagined doing something like what's done on this Jag engine near the beginning of this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DCU1lWPYlPQ
He seems to get good results.

If you know what you're doing it's do-able. But for $30/hole, I think leaving it to a pro is totally worth it. Here's how that looks (Harley ironhead cylinder)

And again, make sure it's a coarse hone.

Re: Restoring (to a point) my '68 BSA Spitfire Mk4 [Re: David Kavanagh] #779457 07/23/19 7:30 am
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I’m not a fan of those ball hones, they scratch the surface but don’t maintain a contour of the barrel. I use a Draper honing tool it’s done many bores although needs new stones for it now, but it maintains its round shape. Only thing is you need to be pretty brave using it as the stones are centred in the middle.

But unless your working on a lot of cylinders then I would just pay the $30 and have a shop do it for you. The results will be far better than what’s you can achieve at home.


beerchug
Re: Restoring (to a point) my '68 BSA Spitfire Mk4 [Re: David Kavanagh] #779471 07/23/19 10:38 am
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I agree, get the barrels honed at a local shop who knows about british bikes. At the same time get them to measure the pistons and bore to ensure they still have the right clearance.

I would use the Hastings rings as suggested as these seem to have better sealing and oil control characteristics than standard cast iron rings.

The engine appears to be in good shape so far so hopefully there are no major surprises in store.

Will be interesting to see what kind of oil pump is fitted, you may want to consider upgrading to the iron type or SRM version as well as fitting an oil filter.


1968 A65 Firebird
1967 B44 Shooting Star
1972 Norton Commando
Re: Restoring (to a point) my '68 BSA Spitfire Mk4 [Re: David Kavanagh] #779521 07/23/19 8:56 pm
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'68 BSA Spitfire MkIV (w/ '67 numbers)
'81 Yamaha XJ550 Seca
'90 Yamaha FZR1000 EXUP
Re: Restoring (to a point) my '68 BSA Spitfire Mk4 [Re: David Kavanagh] #779552 07/24/19 2:18 am
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I think that tool is the clutch spring adjustment tool. The tool pouch with the zipper is the original one. The other tool rolls were popular at the time as well.

As far as the copper part you asked about, I think it's a valve guide. Didn't get a good view of it.

The gears and sprocket likely won't have part numbers on them. You'll need to count the teeth to see what they are. Check for pitting on the teeth to get a good read on their state. The gear teeth may not be chipped or cracked, but if the transmission collected water or overheated, it will show on the faces of the gear teeth themselves.

Not sure what those two mystery blocks are. Maybe turn signal mounts or something aftermarket (or unrelated)

Re: Restoring (to a point) my '68 BSA Spitfire Mk4 [Re: David Kavanagh] #779570 07/24/19 7:23 am
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Regarding the gears, check for rounding of the edges on the engagement dogs. Its these dogs which take the wear when changing gear and eventually lead to slipping out of gear.

The fact that you have gears and change forks in your box may give some clues to the bikes previous life such as high mileage or running with low gearbox oil.


1968 A65 Firebird
1967 B44 Shooting Star
1972 Norton Commando
Re: Restoring (to a point) my '68 BSA Spitfire Mk4 [Re: David Kavanagh] #779575 07/24/19 8:22 am
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Your right about the silencer brackets, only they are for an oil in frame.

As mark says count the teeth on the gears, if your taking the box out of yours you may wish to count those teeth as well.


beerchug
Re: Restoring (to a point) my '68 BSA Spitfire Mk4 [Re: David Kavanagh] #779617 07/24/19 7:44 pm
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looks like the motor is coming out and apart.
A few tips.
Leave the chain on and the the back brake connected, until you have stripped the gearbox/ clutch / primary. it comes in handy for restraining the drive train when undoing stuff..

You will need a clutch centre extractor tool, didnt see one in the box.

use a hair drier or heat gun on low to warm the alternator tails before extracting them, they will be brittle by now.
When removing the timing case keep pressure on the idler pinion so it stays in place/ mesh, this will allow you to confirm timing marks are present and correct.

After opening up the timing case,
Before you remove the gear cluster/ trapdoor/ cassette , check the layshaft end float, a simple push pull on the protruding shaft can tell a lot, it should have " just perceptible end float", if you feel it move more than a gnats tadger and hear a clunk try to measure how much end float is there with a clock gauge and write the figure down , this will be good to know when shimming the box on final assembly.

It could be one of the PO s had saved some good parts for a potential tranny rebuild, possibly with a view to a refresh, whats not in the box is any other sign of a rebuild , no old bearings or springs, even though they seem to have held on to old valves and pistons.
The two sliding gears with the dogs can be swapped from main shaft to layshaft, getting double the life out of worn dogs, hang on to them.The head gaskets and speedo drive are handy, most of the rest is the sort of knackered junk people keep for no good reason apart from maybe reference purposes. The tool rolls are handy and the original purse is quite a find.
Budget for a new clutch hub centre, if the rubbers are original they will be toast regardless of mileage, they can be replaced but the hub centre is a high wear item and its hardly worth refreshing a worn old one.
The speedo drive and cables in the box suggest you can take whatever mileage is on the odometer with a bag of salt.


71 Devimead A65 750
56 Norbsa 68 Longstroke A65
Cagiva Raptor 650
MZ TS 250
The poster formerly known as Pod
Re: Restoring (to a point) my '68 BSA Spitfire Mk4 [Re: David Kavanagh] #779618 07/24/19 8:19 pm
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The primary side cover looks to have some RTV holding it on. I'm going to try leveraging in the access hole with a bit of wood, though I am looking for a replacement cover.
I need to drain the timing side next and get that case open. I'll take your advice on keeping the gears in place in order to verify timing and shaft play as you mention.
The odometer reads 0000 and I was told it was replaced (and wasn't connected). No clue on miles on the bike before or after the re-build.
I'll post another video once I get further into things. Heading to a bike meetup tonight (in Rochester) where I'll ask around for some brit bike shops who could handle honing and other tasks.


'68 BSA Spitfire MkIV (w/ '67 numbers)
'81 Yamaha XJ550 Seca
'90 Yamaha FZR1000 EXUP
Re: Restoring (to a point) my '68 BSA Spitfire Mk4 [Re: David Kavanagh] #779619 07/24/19 8:24 pm
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One thing I'd forgot to mention: your coils.

I think I noticed in the early videos that the coil brackets were not original, but it appears that you have the original brackets (and coils) in your parts box. The Lucas coils came in two sizes: "large" at 48mm diameter (original), and the standard 40mm diameter. It's likely that they were replaced and that the large coils weren't easily available at the time, so smaller ones were used.

In my case, I use the standard-size coils with a piece of radiator hose over them to fit the larger brackets. This has the benefit of also insulating the coils from vibrations.

If you are going to replace the points with EI, it is recommended to use a pair of 6v coils in series or a 12v dual-plug coil.

Re: Restoring (to a point) my '68 BSA Spitfire Mk4 [Re: David Kavanagh] #779620 07/24/19 8:33 pm
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Originally Posted by David Kavanagh
I'll ask around for some brit bike shops who could handle honing and other tasks.


On this forum, the name Ed V will come up a lot: https://www.shopevengineering.com/servicereq

Re: Restoring (to a point) my '68 BSA Spitfire Mk4 [Re: David Kavanagh] #779642 07/25/19 1:14 am
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Made some good contacts tonight. The guy who runs http://www.britishbikeconnection.com/home.htm was there (he's local). I also found where I can get the frame sandblastest and powder coated, another place for chrome work, and they can strip chrome as well, so good news for my side covers. Another place does vapor blasting. I can get my head done there for about $45. Whee!


'68 BSA Spitfire MkIV (w/ '67 numbers)
'81 Yamaha XJ550 Seca
'90 Yamaha FZR1000 EXUP
Re: Restoring (to a point) my '68 BSA Spitfire Mk4 [Re: David Kavanagh] #779689 07/25/19 3:00 pm
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I found one minor mistake from a previous owner. Of course, some of the screws have buggered heads as well.

Attached Files

'68 BSA Spitfire MkIV (w/ '67 numbers)
'81 Yamaha XJ550 Seca
'90 Yamaha FZR1000 EXUP
Re: Restoring (to a point) my '68 BSA Spitfire Mk4 [Re: David Kavanagh] #779697 07/25/19 8:58 pm
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I'm not sure that the gear change return spring should be crossed and IM happy to be corrected if wrong.

There's a free A65 factory workshop manual 62-66 on Classic British Spares Here which seems to show the spring with straight legs, see fig B45, you may need to zoom in to see the detail.

In other words I think your return spring setup is correct.

Last edited by gunner; 07/25/19 9:27 pm.

1968 A65 Firebird
1967 B44 Shooting Star
1972 Norton Commando
Re: Restoring (to a point) my '68 BSA Spitfire Mk4 [Re: David Kavanagh] #779710 07/25/19 11:49 pm
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Look at about 6:10 in this video. I assumed they knew a thing or two, but now I'm going to look at my factory, haynes and clymer to see what the minority report is! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jt2x5QoTUVk&list=PL5Bv2JegwabcPCTwImDqr8sy4_q2PQbBU


'68 BSA Spitfire MkIV (w/ '67 numbers)
'81 Yamaha XJ550 Seca
'90 Yamaha FZR1000 EXUP
Re: Restoring (to a point) my '68 BSA Spitfire Mk4 [Re: David Kavanagh] #779715 07/26/19 12:45 am
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Here's what I found.

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Screen Shot 2019-07-25 at 8.44.01 PM.jpg (38.61 KB, 118 downloads)

'68 BSA Spitfire MkIV (w/ '67 numbers)
'81 Yamaha XJ550 Seca
'90 Yamaha FZR1000 EXUP
Re: Restoring (to a point) my '68 BSA Spitfire Mk4 [Re: gunner] #779734 07/26/19 7:22 am
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Originally Posted by gunner


In other words I think your return spring setup is correct.


Far from it, the ends need to be crossed, regardless of spring position pre 69 or post 69, the spring should get tighter as the lever is against it, in this position it will get more open. It’s possible that it’s the wrong spring altogether though, the trails on the spring would stick out at right angles had it been fitted like this (if you could twist one that far that is)

The position of David’s first picture is correct, and the spring should look like it does in the third picture, the middle pic is of 1970 onwards bikes


beerchug
Re: Restoring (to a point) my '68 BSA Spitfire Mk4 [Re: David Kavanagh] #779735 07/26/19 7:24 am
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Originally Posted by David Kavanagh
Look at about 6:10 in this video. I assumed they knew a thing or two, but now I'm going to look at my factory, haynes and clymer to see what the minority report is! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jt2x5QoTUVk&list=PL5Bv2JegwabcPCTwImDqr8sy4_q2PQbBU


Ha, hadn’t see the video before my last post... some great tips on there!


beerchug
Re: Restoring (to a point) my '68 BSA Spitfire Mk4 [Re: David Kavanagh] #779743 07/26/19 1:02 pm
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I think there are different springs, but I only say this because I've always installed it like it is on your bike, not like in the video. Then again, I might have been installing it wrong the whole time, but it worked nonetheless.

What Chilton is showing in your pic above is for the later inner timing covers, where the spring mounts the other way. That's correct for the bikes where the clutch cable mounts to the top of the cover instead of the back.

Re: Restoring (to a point) my '68 BSA Spitfire Mk4 [Re: David Kavanagh] #779744 07/26/19 1:07 pm
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One somewhat-related point: look at the Haynes manual pic... see the way they show the kickstart place with the tab facing out? That's incorrect and should be the other way around (as shown in the factory manual)

[Linked Image]

Last edited by MarcB; 07/26/19 1:08 pm.
Re: Restoring (to a point) my '68 BSA Spitfire Mk4 [Re: MarcB] #779745 07/26/19 1:11 pm
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Yes, the tab was facing in on my bike as well.


'68 BSA Spitfire MkIV (w/ '67 numbers)
'81 Yamaha XJ550 Seca
'90 Yamaha FZR1000 EXUP
Re: Restoring (to a point) my '68 BSA Spitfire Mk4 [Re: MarcB] #779746 07/26/19 1:54 pm
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Originally Posted by MarcB
One somewhat-related point: look at the Haynes manual pic... see the way they show the kickstart place with the tab facing out? That's incorrect and should be the other way around (as shown in the factory manual)

[Linked Image]



Seeing these pictures and thinking I had it wrong and switched it round, that plate makes a nice job of carving a radius into the outer timing cover whistle

To further marks point about the springs, the spring changed when they started using the bobbin (1970) there are also some crap springs on the market especially kickstart springs. Not only poorly wound but not of spring steel. I buy mine from SRM. Usually find spring steel is a similar colour to a hacksaw blade, if you see anything in bright zink plate... avoid it. Unless like me you ordered them over the phone expecting to receive a quality part.


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Re: Restoring (to a point) my '68 BSA Spitfire Mk4 [Re: David Kavanagh] #779757 07/26/19 4:49 pm
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The Chilton manual shows the later 70 onwards spring fitting with the useful eccentric top hat to adjust the spring tension., the earlier springs are different.


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Re: Restoring (to a point) my '68 BSA Spitfire Mk4 [Re: David Kavanagh] #779770 07/26/19 5:57 pm
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What's a good way to get the timing advance weights off before pulling the timing inside cover? That's all that stands in my way. I have the bolt out.


'68 BSA Spitfire MkIV (w/ '67 numbers)
'81 Yamaha XJ550 Seca
'90 Yamaha FZR1000 EXUP
Re: Restoring (to a point) my '68 BSA Spitfire Mk4 [Re: David Kavanagh] #779771 07/26/19 6:11 pm
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There is a BSA tool for this part no 61-5005 but I've never seen it used.

Usual method is to screw the center bolt in and tap it lightly with a small hammer, this is usually enough to break the taper.


1968 A65 Firebird
1967 B44 Shooting Star
1972 Norton Commando
Re: Restoring (to a point) my '68 BSA Spitfire Mk4 [Re: David Kavanagh] #779772 07/26/19 6:12 pm
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The tool is essentially a long bolt with a sliding weight on it. You should be able to put a long bolt with anything over it you can use to pull on with good plyers.

This is what it looks like:
[Linked Image]

Re: Restoring (to a point) my '68 BSA Spitfire Mk4 [Re: gunner] #779774 07/26/19 6:18 pm
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Sadly, I must not have the properly calibrated tap. The thing is firmly jammed on!


'68 BSA Spitfire MkIV (w/ '67 numbers)
'81 Yamaha XJ550 Seca
'90 Yamaha FZR1000 EXUP
Re: Restoring (to a point) my '68 BSA Spitfire Mk4 [Re: David Kavanagh] #779775 07/26/19 6:19 pm
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This guy shows how to use a small dowel to cause the bolt to bottom out and pull the AAU out: Triumph T120R Crank shaft Oil seal change

Granted, this is a triumph with a Boyer rotor, but the process should be the same for points on a BSA.

Re: Restoring (to a point) my '68 BSA Spitfire Mk4 [Re: David Kavanagh] #779776 07/26/19 6:19 pm
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ah, the shaft itself comes free. I thought the mechanism came off the shaft. got it.


'68 BSA Spitfire MkIV (w/ '67 numbers)
'81 Yamaha XJ550 Seca
'90 Yamaha FZR1000 EXUP
Re: Restoring (to a point) my '68 BSA Spitfire Mk4 [Re: David Kavanagh] #779778 07/26/19 6:38 pm
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Here's another Triumph video, but the BSA part is the same (except it mounts to the pinion gear instead of the exhaust cam: link

Re: Restoring (to a point) my '68 BSA Spitfire Mk4 [Re: MarcB] #779781 07/26/19 6:59 pm
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That helps illustrate what I'm facing really well! I just wish I had something with that thread laying around!


'68 BSA Spitfire MkIV (w/ '67 numbers)
'81 Yamaha XJ550 Seca
'90 Yamaha FZR1000 EXUP
Re: Restoring (to a point) my '68 BSA Spitfire Mk4 [Re: David Kavanagh] #779790 07/26/19 8:52 pm
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The good news is if your change to a Boyer or Pazon then to remove that an M8 bolt with the first few threads ground off works perfect for pulling the rotor off.

With your points, as gunner said, use an appropriate sized bolt to screw into the end of the AAU, then give the bolt a few taps from different angles, it will knock off.
One difference with triumph and BSA AAUs is BSAs don’t use a key to locate the AAU.


beerchug
Re: Restoring (to a point) my '68 BSA Spitfire Mk4 [Re: David Kavanagh] #779808 07/27/19 12:04 am
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what sort of good news is that?

the AR mech comes off when a 5/16 bolt of the correct thread is used to push the bits off the taper, its either 5/16 UNF or 5/16 BSF the bike might have these bits on, try the handlebar mount bolts.

once you have removed the AR mech , put it with the points into a small plastic bag with some toe nails clippings.
Fire up your forge,
get the bag contents to red heat , pound into a badly made knife then fit Electronic ignition with new wires , 6 v coils and ignition switch.

Breathe deep. and continue. one small step.

I used to advise throwing the AR mech and the points into the nearest body of water, but, in case somebody tries to use it later , total destruction is the best way.

happy friday night.

Last edited by gavin eisler; 07/27/19 12:54 am.

71 Devimead A65 750
56 Norbsa 68 Longstroke A65
Cagiva Raptor 650
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Re: Restoring (to a point) my '68 BSA Spitfire Mk4 [Re: David Kavanagh] #779810 07/27/19 1:18 am
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Well, it turns out I got to the same point on my rebuild as you are with your teardown, so I thought I would try the cross-over trick with the shifter spring. Here's what I found:

There really are different springs:
[Linked Image] [Linked Image]

I tried to cross-over the spring with the longer tangs. It was a struggle. No way is that going to work:
[Linked Image]

Aaah, much better:
[Linked Image]

What might have happened is what often happens: a modification is made to a design and it's assumed that it will be backwards compatible. In this case, what I assume is the later spring (the longer one) appears to work fine *if* you don't cross over the tangs. That's just a guess.

Re: Restoring (to a point) my '68 BSA Spitfire Mk4 [Re: David Kavanagh] #779813 07/27/19 3:24 am
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And, inside the timing case. Questions, I have some...
https://youtu.be/7BNtDMYVKy8


'68 BSA Spitfire MkIV (w/ '67 numbers)
'81 Yamaha XJ550 Seca
'90 Yamaha FZR1000 EXUP
Re: Restoring (to a point) my '68 BSA Spitfire Mk4 [Re: David Kavanagh] #779840 07/27/19 1:24 pm
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Looks like the bearing behind the crank pinion is the original plain type, you can test for wear by trying to move the crank up/down & sideways as well as side to side, there should be hardly any play.

Check the oil pump carefully for the "DD" stamp, this would indicate the later type alloy pump which is OK and may be re-useable, see This Link for details of A65 oil pumps.

With the oil pump in place and oil lines hooked up you could try spinning the pump over with a cordless drill using a length of rubber hose clamped to the pump tacho drive. This should reveal any leaks in the pump body joints and the pump to crankcase joint. This procedure is more useful when assembling the engine but might give you an idea of any existing issues.

Last edited by gunner; 07/27/19 1:36 pm.

1968 A65 Firebird
1967 B44 Shooting Star
1972 Norton Commando
Re: Restoring (to a point) my '68 BSA Spitfire Mk4 [Re: David Kavanagh] #779861 07/27/19 5:23 pm
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Originally Posted by David Kavanagh
And, inside the timing case. Questions, I have some...
https://youtu.be/7BNtDMYVKy8

The primary reason for leaving the gears on is so you can check how the marks line up. If the timing marks are off on disassembly, that's something you want to know now as it will indicate that the previous owner screwed it up or that the gearss may be incorrectly marked.

Without this info, you could have a harder time during reassembly. Once you've verified the marks (taking a picture won't hurt) then feel free to pull off the idler gear any time.

Re: Restoring (to a point) my '68 BSA Spitfire Mk4 [Re: David Kavanagh] #779876 07/27/19 9:43 pm
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I was wondering about checking out the oil pump. I like the idea of trying to run it in place before removing it. I thought of having the connecting rods held up by some elastic cord so they don't bump into the case. I assume if the pump spins, the crank spins unless there's a clutch on there I don't know about.
I'll verify the timing marks before I go further. I've got my Friday night planned out once I return!


'68 BSA Spitfire MkIV (w/ '67 numbers)
'81 Yamaha XJ550 Seca
'90 Yamaha FZR1000 EXUP
Re: Restoring (to a point) my '68 BSA Spitfire Mk4 [Re: David Kavanagh] #779877 07/27/19 10:10 pm
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When verifying timing marks, if my memory serves me correctly when the crank is at top dead, the woodruff key for the crank is also top dead centre too, as is the camshaft, if to bottom dead center then the crank just needs another revolution for all the marks to align.


beerchug
Re: Restoring (to a point) my '68 BSA Spitfire Mk4 [Re: gavin eisler] #779886 07/27/19 11:29 pm
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Originally Posted by gavin eisler
what sort of good news is that?

the AR mech comes off when a 5/16 bolt of the correct thread is used to push the bits off the taper, its either 5/16 UNF or 5/16 BSF the bike might have these bits on, try the handlebar mount bolts.

once you have removed the AR mech , put it with the points into a small plastic bag with some toe nails clippings.
Fire up your forge,
get the bag contents to red heat , pound into a badly made knife then fit Electronic ignition with new wires , 6 v coils and ignition switch.

Breathe deep. and continue. one small step.

I used to advise throwing the AR mech and the points into the nearest body of water, but, in case somebody tries to use it later , total destruction is the best way.

happy friday night.




Very well put sir.


To run the oil pump fitted to the cases you'll need to remove the worm drive from the crank, which is a left hand thread.
You will then be able to put a piece of tube onto the tacho drive section of the pump and spin it with a drill.
Personally i'd take the pump off and go through it anyway, then test it on the bench. Then refit it with 3 allen bolts so you
don't have to mess about with the worm drive. You can also reseat the non return ball valve and replace the spring.
Just my 2c.

Last edited by NickL; 07/27/19 11:36 pm.
Re: Restoring (to a point) my '68 BSA Spitfire Mk4 [Re: David Kavanagh] #780431 08/03/19 3:42 pm
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OK, back home and seeing how far I can move things along this weekend. https://youtu.be/Pu1iz_UX41M and then this one: https://youtu.be/DKLmRNATX2U

Last edited by David Kavanagh; 08/03/19 9:34 pm.

'68 BSA Spitfire MkIV (w/ '67 numbers)
'81 Yamaha XJ550 Seca
'90 Yamaha FZR1000 EXUP
Re: Restoring (to a point) my '68 BSA Spitfire Mk4 [Re: David Kavanagh] #780481 08/03/19 11:56 pm
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Nice progress.

That oil pump is original for '68, not a DD cast iron bodied one. They're not necessarily bad but testing their delivery is tricky on bikes without a pressure gauge, so it's really up to you whether you want to chance it or not. I'm putting in a SRM pump in mine this time around, but the last few times I've been in there the original pump was reused.

Since you're taking the motor completely apart, I wouldn't worry too much about removing the pinion gear. If the crank bushing is standard size, the gear should fit through and it's a lot easier to get it off when you have the crank in your hands using a bearing puller (example from Amazon)

The gear on the cam should pop off with a small 2-jaw puller or steering wheel puller (using the threaded holes in the gear). You may also be able to put bolts in both holes, screw through until they touch the case, then slowly tighten each one-by-one in small increments, to push the gear off. It's interference fit with a keyway to keep it from turning.

As far as the timing marks are concerned, don't worry about where the crank or cam is as long as the dots/marks match up. The two dots on the cam gear will alternate every 360 degree on the crank (1 turns of the crank = 1/2 turn on the camshaft). That's why there are two dots on that gear. Since it all lined up on disassembly, you can be certain that it can go back on per the manual.

On the primary side, everything seems to put up a fight:
The alternator stator (and, it is an alternator with a rectifier under the seat) can be fairly tough to get out. It tends to be pretty tight against the bracket. The stator winding is pretty soft so try not to pry against it too much (unless you plan on replacing it)
The alternator rotor may need coaxing, though mine slides on/off pretty easily. There is a keyway to keep it from spinning in place.
The engine sprocket may also be a bit tight on the crank grooves. There is a spacer behind it, against the crank bearing that may or may not have shims between it and the sprocket. Also, the sprocket only comes out along with the clutch basket.
The clutch basket has a large nut holding it on to a tapered shaft. There is a tool that threads onto the center of the basket with a center bolt to push the whole thing out. There's a woodruff key on the tapered shaft also.

Marc

Re: Restoring (to a point) my '68 BSA Spitfire Mk4 [Re: David Kavanagh] #780513 08/04/19 10:14 am
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I think the pump may be a "DD" type since it has bolts rather than screws holding the end plate on. I would take it apart and see if it has the dowels fitted between the top and the body. If it does have dowels and it turns freely I would be tempted to reuse it together with a new SRM OPRV or refurbished original.

The alternator stator wire issue can be fixed by thoroughly cleaning the area and using epoxy resin or similar to seal the area.


1968 A65 Firebird
1967 B44 Shooting Star
1972 Norton Commando
Re: Restoring (to a point) my '68 BSA Spitfire Mk4 [Re: David Kavanagh] #780522 08/04/19 11:42 am
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Just looked twice at your video, the second time with a late style idler gear on hand, it looks like you have a late style fitted, these are a bit wider than the pre 69 type (when they changed the bushes to that without a thrust face).
You might find (although I’ve never done this) that if you put the pinion back in place, put a straight edge (steel ruler would work) across the face of the idler gears, you might find it stands proud of the camshaft pinion.

I have one of each so should be able to find out properly for you. (Although ones sitting on my desk at work, the other - the late one is sat looking at me in my garage.


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Re: Restoring (to a point) my '68 BSA Spitfire Mk4 [Re: David Kavanagh] #780530 08/04/19 2:57 pm
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Doesn't look like the idler is proud. I notice the cam-shaft gear is chamfered, unlike the idler.

Attached Files

'68 BSA Spitfire MkIV (w/ '67 numbers)
'81 Yamaha XJ550 Seca
'90 Yamaha FZR1000 EXUP
Re: Restoring (to a point) my '68 BSA Spitfire Mk4 [Re: David Kavanagh] #780546 08/04/19 7:09 pm
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More on clutch parts and inside the oil pump: https://youtu.be/9Mnn5YDGvAw


'68 BSA Spitfire MkIV (w/ '67 numbers)
'81 Yamaha XJ550 Seca
'90 Yamaha FZR1000 EXUP
Re: Restoring (to a point) my '68 BSA Spitfire Mk4 [Re: David Kavanagh] #780547 08/04/19 7:38 pm
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Yep deffo not a "DD" pump so looks like nice new SRM pump is in order.

If you want to remove the clutch without investing in a locking tool, the best option is to use a cordless impact wrench, even the 12v car wheel nut types will work.

Regarding the crank end float, I'm not sure if you can detect any play by pulling by hand, usually you have to lever the crank using a tyre wrench from inside the crank mouth and use a dial gauge on the crank end.

If you cant detect any end float or up and down play and your annual mileage is low, I think I would be happy to leave the bottom end it as is, fit the new pump & oprv as well as an oil filter in the return line. It would be worthwhile cleaning out the oil tank as sludge accumulates in the bottom and using new oil lines. Fit an alloy sump plate with magnetic drain plug.


Last edited by gunner; 08/04/19 8:29 pm.

1968 A65 Firebird
1967 B44 Shooting Star
1972 Norton Commando
Re: Restoring (to a point) my '68 BSA Spitfire Mk4 [Re: David Kavanagh] #780561 08/04/19 10:00 pm
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It’s all subjective, it could be a perfectly good pump, or like any pump it could be worn and need the faces flattening. But I would look at getting it pressure checked.

The original style ball and springs are available to replace the ones currently fitted.


beerchug
Re: Restoring (to a point) my '68 BSA Spitfire Mk4 [Re: David Kavanagh] #780587 08/05/19 2:29 am
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Personally, I wouldn't put it back together without checking the sludge trap in the crank. It may seem daunting considering the investment, but the cost of putting it back together only to have something work itself loose in the sludge trap and clog up the works isn't worth it to me. Look at it this way: if you take your time and do it "right", it's likely to be the last time that it's apart in your lifetime (assuming this isn't going to be a daily ride once reassembled).

You may be able to borrow some of the special tools from a local shop if you know of one. Some you can make at home (e.g. glue a steel plate to a fiber plate to lock the hub to the basket), but others you'll need to correct tool for. I find that the clutch hub tool is handy not just on disassembly but also on reassembly. It often have to remove and reinstall the clutch basket a few times to get the alignment of the chain right, and the tool is really the best way to go.

Regarding removal of the stator, it's always seemed to have tight tolerances on the studs, so it has to come out as straight as possible which makes the process tricky as you can't easily grab the sections near the studs. Try as best you can to pry it away from the bracket with a plastic wedge or small screwdriver where there are gaps. Once it starts to move on one side, but sure to keep the opposite side sliding out evenly, otherwise it will bind on the opposing stud. It's a bitch to start but once you get a decent gap it gets easier.

Good luck

Re: Restoring (to a point) my '68 BSA Spitfire Mk4 [Re: David Kavanagh] #780704 08/06/19 11:19 am
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I don't know if this is possible and perhaps other will chime in but I was wondering if the sludge trap securing screw is visible through the breather hole at 2 o'clock or the idler pinion hole.

If it is visible then you might be able to determine whether its original or not and perhaps whether the sludge trap has been changed at some point. I believe the original screw uses a large flat and is secured by punch marks, later replacements sometimes used an allen headed screw so if you have this then the sludge trap will have been replaced at some point and may give you some some idea as to the state of the engine. Even if the screw was replaced with the flat type you should still see drill holes in the crank where the old one was extracted.

Last edited by gunner; 08/06/19 11:23 am.

1968 A65 Firebird
1967 B44 Shooting Star
1972 Norton Commando
Re: Restoring (to a point) my '68 BSA Spitfire Mk4 [Re: David Kavanagh] #780768 08/07/19 12:22 am
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I've been able to see part of the sludge trap screw and it's slotted, so old style, or original. I can't imagine if the bottom end is this tight, they wouldn't have serviced that. I also don't know how many miles are on the re-build.
Next thing is to order clutch locking tool (probably from here unless there's a better option: https://www.lowbrowcustoms.com/tools/primary-clutch-tools/shopby/bsa.html)
I'll need to get a proper puller. The 2-jaw I have isn't suitable for the timing-side gears.
Oh, and persuading the alternator windings off their mounting... fun.

btw, picked up another bike which needs carbs re-built (not British, sorry). Priority is the BSA though. :-)


'68 BSA Spitfire MkIV (w/ '67 numbers)
'81 Yamaha XJ550 Seca
'90 Yamaha FZR1000 EXUP
Re: Restoring (to a point) my '68 BSA Spitfire Mk4 [Re: David Kavanagh] #780874 08/08/19 1:43 am
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I ordered some tools from Feked (puller, clutch locking tool and basket puller. Now if I could just get that alternator armature loose!!


'68 BSA Spitfire MkIV (w/ '67 numbers)
'81 Yamaha XJ550 Seca
'90 Yamaha FZR1000 EXUP
Re: Restoring (to a point) my '68 BSA Spitfire Mk4 [Re: David Kavanagh] #780876 08/08/19 2:09 am
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duplicate post

Last edited by David Kavanagh; 08/08/19 2:10 am.

'68 BSA Spitfire MkIV (w/ '67 numbers)
'81 Yamaha XJ550 Seca
'90 Yamaha FZR1000 EXUP
Re: Restoring (to a point) my '68 BSA Spitfire Mk4 [Re: David Kavanagh] #780895 08/08/19 8:14 am
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gavin eisler Offline
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! Now if I could just get that alternator armature loose!!!

Do you mean the alternator Stator or Rotor, ?

"Armature" is the correct terminology for a Dynamo generator ( DC) and usually refers to the rotating part with its commutator and windings . Your bike has an AC generator with a wound stator and a permanent magnet rotor , there is no armature.


71 Devimead A65 750
56 Norbsa 68 Longstroke A65
Cagiva Raptor 650
MZ TS 250
The poster formerly known as Pod
Re: Restoring (to a point) my '68 BSA Spitfire Mk4 [Re: David Kavanagh] #780911 08/08/19 12:26 pm
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Thanks, Gavin. I do want to use the correct word. The stator is very difficult to free from castings in the '68 case. I'll try a 2-jaw puller later.


'68 BSA Spitfire MkIV (w/ '67 numbers)
'81 Yamaha XJ550 Seca
'90 Yamaha FZR1000 EXUP
Re: Restoring (to a point) my '68 BSA Spitfire Mk4 [Re: David Kavanagh] #780913 08/08/19 1:23 pm
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Allan Gill Offline
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usually the stators will walk off the studs one little bit at a time, sometimes with some help from a wide flat blade screw driver, (twisting - not prying) however they get very much tied in with the rotor so removing the crank nut and trying to get both removed at the same time might be easier as your not working against the magnets pulling it back on.

you will need the correct threaded puller for the clutch, a sliding jaw puller with space to mount bolts will work for the crank sprocket if it doesn't come loose.

I did a side by side comparrison of the early and late idler pinions.

There isnt much difference between them, I used a straight edge to show clearance between the two (where using the socket I swapped sockets over to prove there was no indiference with heights.

As you can see the early type (on the left) is deeper dished than the late one (right)

the early type also is more proud from the back of the gear to the front edge of the teeth than the later type (wider overall) .... fractionally.

Both gears are also bevelled on the outer edge but not as much as the cam pinion.

If any of this helps....

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beerchug
Re: Restoring (to a point) my '68 BSA Spitfire Mk4 [Re: David Kavanagh] #780966 08/09/19 12:42 am
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Stripping upper rear of bike while waiting for tools. Seat, tail light, fender and attachments. Note to self: Must loosen rear axle nut before I get too far.


'68 BSA Spitfire MkIV (w/ '67 numbers)
'81 Yamaha XJ550 Seca
'90 Yamaha FZR1000 EXUP
Re: Restoring (to a point) my '68 BSA Spitfire Mk4 [Re: David Kavanagh] #780969 08/09/19 2:22 am
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MarcB Online Content
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Did you get the stator off? There are two notches near the front studs. Those are going to be key to getting that thing off. That, and making sure it comes out evenly in each stud.

Originally Posted by David Kavanagh
Must loosen rear axle nut before I get too far.


Not sure if you're familiar with the quick disconnect hub but it allows you to remove the wheel, leaving the brake and sprocket in place. Makes getting to the rear motor mount much easier. Also key to getting the drive chain back on when getting it back together.

Re: Restoring (to a point) my '68 BSA Spitfire Mk4 [Re: MarcB] #781013 08/09/19 2:40 pm
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found info about the back wheel!

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IMG_20190809_103657624.jpg (68.53 KB, 84 downloads)

'68 BSA Spitfire MkIV (w/ '67 numbers)
'81 Yamaha XJ550 Seca
'90 Yamaha FZR1000 EXUP
Re: Restoring (to a point) my '68 BSA Spitfire Mk4 [Re: David Kavanagh] #781285 08/12/19 4:27 pm
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I bought this: https://thebonnevilleshop.com/trium...61-3256-61-3676-61-6014-61-6046-61-3773/
hoping to get the timing gear off the crank & the pinion off the crank shaft. Of course, it doesn't fit the crank gear grooves. Sure, I can modify the tool, hopefully not to the point of weakening it too much. Thoughts?


'68 BSA Spitfire MkIV (w/ '67 numbers)
'81 Yamaha XJ550 Seca
'90 Yamaha FZR1000 EXUP
Re: Restoring (to a point) my '68 BSA Spitfire Mk4 [Re: David Kavanagh] #781287 08/12/19 4:59 pm
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As I mentioned earlier, the gear at the end of the crank will fit through the bush. Once the crank is out of the case, there's a bit more space behind the gear to grab it with bearing splitter (like this) or a number of other tools. You'll likely need a bearing puller like that to get the inner roller bearing off the other side of the crank anyways.


Re: Restoring (to a point) my '68 BSA Spitfire Mk4 [Re: MarcB] #781293 08/12/19 6:19 pm
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David Kavanagh Offline OP
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Sorry, must have missed that tidbit. So many things to remember!


'68 BSA Spitfire MkIV (w/ '67 numbers)
'81 Yamaha XJ550 Seca
'90 Yamaha FZR1000 EXUP
Re: Restoring (to a point) my '68 BSA Spitfire Mk4 [Re: David Kavanagh] #781294 08/12/19 6:21 pm
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gunner Offline
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You may need to grind down the ends of the puller feet so it fits exactly in the pinion slots. Additionally its worthwhile using a jubilee clip or a couple of strong cable zip ties to pull the feet together and ensure they dont slip off.

Heat the pinion first to help it slip off, it;s not unusual for one of the pinion slots to break whilst being pulled off.

Last edited by gunner; 08/12/19 6:23 pm.

1968 A65 Firebird
1967 B44 Shooting Star
1972 Norton Commando
Re: Restoring (to a point) my '68 BSA Spitfire Mk4 [Re: David Kavanagh] #781378 08/13/19 2:27 pm
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Got the head back from being blasted. Guy said he spent well over an hour on it and I gave him $80 and walked away happy. This head will look great on top of the cylinders!

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IMG_20190813_101455492.jpg (54.47 KB, 36 downloads)

'68 BSA Spitfire MkIV (w/ '67 numbers)
'81 Yamaha XJ550 Seca
'90 Yamaha FZR1000 EXUP
Re: Restoring (to a point) my '68 BSA Spitfire Mk4 [Re: David Kavanagh] #781382 08/13/19 3:16 pm
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Allan Gill Offline
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Did you give it to him with the valves still in?

Looks good! Once you’ve got all the valve gear out of t, make sure you give it a good clean with soapy water and tiny bottle brushes to ensure there is no blasting material left in any of the oilways.


beerchug
Re: Restoring (to a point) my '68 BSA Spitfire Mk4 [Re: Allan Gill] #781387 08/13/19 4:22 pm
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Yes, I figured the valve faces would get a cleaning that way, but I expect to be cleaning out passages. I'll also blast some compressed air through. My attempt to get the valves out with a c-clamp and a pipe section with a chunk cut out (to reach the keepers) didn't work out, so I guess I'm buying another tool!


'68 BSA Spitfire MkIV (w/ '67 numbers)
'81 Yamaha XJ550 Seca
'90 Yamaha FZR1000 EXUP
Re: Restoring (to a point) my '68 BSA Spitfire Mk4 [Re: David Kavanagh] #781391 08/13/19 4:43 pm
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Originally Posted by David Kavanagh
My attempt to get the valves out with a c-clamp and a pipe section with a chunk cut out (to reach the keepers) didn't work out, so I guess I'm buying another tool!


Getting them off is the easy part: deep socket + hammer will make the keepers pop right off.


See https://youtu.be/aZTnODXfDvA?t=91 and https://youtu.be/qzqHATdD2EM

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