BritBike Forum logo
BritBike SponsorBritBike SponsorBritBike SponsorBritBike SponsorBritBike SponsorBritBike SponsorBritBike SponsorBritBike SponsorThe Bonneville ShopBritBike Sponsor SteadfastCyclesBritBike SponsorBritBike Sponsor
Upgrade to: Gold Membership | Premium Membership | Vendor Membership | Site Sponsor Membership
Electric Starter Roller
CLICK HERE to see VIDEO
How the Electric Roller Starter works.


ORDER on eBay. CLICK HERE!

Buy your Electric Roller Starter here
ShoutChat Box
Comment Guidelines: Do post respectful and insightful comments.
Buy BritBike staff a coffee
Buy BritBike's staff a coffeeStill here since 1996 serving BritBike enthusiasts..
Search eBay for motorcycle parts in following countries
Australia, Canada, France, Holland, Italy, United Kingdom, USA
Random Gallery photo
Member Spotlight
Pender
Pender
Iowa
Posts: 345
Joined: August 2004
Show All Member Profiles 
Newest Members
Borderlord, BMac, clive1, Dan87GT, B. Nicholson
10942 Registered Users
Top Posters(30 Days)
kommando 101
franko 90
DavidP 64
NickL 55
Popular Topics(Views)
1,067,859 mail-order LSR
a word from..
Forum Statistics
Forums35
Topics68,285
Posts685,158
Members10,942
Most Online14,755
May 5th, 2019
Who's Online Now
65 registered members (Adam M.), 1,290 guests, and 806 spiders.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Rate Thread
Page 1 of 2 1 2
Penetrating oil ATF Acetone versus rest #713114 10/29/17 8:17 pm
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 4,780
gavin eisler Online Content OP
BritBike Forum member
OP Online Content
BritBike Forum member
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 4,780
Cut and pasted from another place.
"I know that I have seen this topic, to some extent, on here before. At our BMAC (British Motorcycle Association of Colorado) meeting yesterday our president brought in a handout for the members on the subject - in print. "Magical Mystery Fluid Revealed", I will just touch on the highlights to keep it short. In 2007 "Machinist's Workshop Mag. tm" published information on various penetrating oils including subjective tests of many of the popular penetrants. The following list is the results of their test with the control being the torque in foot pounds required to remove a nut from a bolt in a "scientifically rusted" environment.
Penetrant ------------------------------------------ Average Load
None ------------------------------------------------ 516 Ft. Lbs.
WD-40 ---------------------------------------------- 238 Ft. Lbs.
PB Blaster ----------------------------------------- 214 Ft. Lbs.
Liquid Wrench ------------------------------------ 127 Ft. Lbs.
Kano Kroil ------------------------------------------ 106 Ft. Lbs.
ATF*/Acetone Mix --------------------------------- 53 Ft. Lbs.

ATF= Automatic Transmission Fluid

The ATF/Acetone mix was a "home brewed" mix of 50/50 automatic transmission fluid and acetone which proved to be better than any of the commercial brands of penetrant on a removing a nut rusted onto a bolt. No matter which penetrant is used they all require a period of time to wick down into the threads, but because acetone has an extremely low dynamic viscosity, it's thin, it gets into the threads quicker than the other products with the ATF following shortly behind for lubrication. Expecting comments!!!"


71 Devimead A65 750
56 Norbsa 68 Longstroke A65
Cagiva Raptor 650
MZ TS 250
The poster formerly known as Pod
Support Your #1 BritBike Forum!

Check out British motorcycles for sale:
British Motorcycles on e-Bay UK
British motorcycles on e-Bay North America
CLICK HERE to see VIDEO
How the Electric Roller Starter works.


ORDER on eBay. CLICK HERE!

Buy your Electric Roller Starter here
Re: Penetrating oil ATF Acetone versus rest [Re: gavin eisler] #713122 10/29/17 9:16 pm
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 950
Swan Offline
BritBike Forum member
Offline
BritBike Forum member
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 950
Qualitatively, I concur with the results. ATF/acetone or Kroil are my first choices for frozen hardware.


1966 Triton
1962 BSA DBD34 Gold Star
1966 Triumph Bonneville
Re: Penetrating oil ATF Acetone versus rest [Re: gavin eisler] #713124 10/29/17 9:28 pm
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 2,169
Peter R Offline
BritBike Forum member
Offline
BritBike Forum member
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 2,169
I tried the ATF/acetone mix on a seized piston of my Benelli, unfortunately, it did not work, and I had to resort to more drastic measures, in spite of the fact that I let it soak for more than two weeks. frown


Peter.
1974 Commando 850
1972 Trident T150T
1961 Goldie DBD34
1969 Benelli 250 sport special
Re: Penetrating oil ATF Acetone versus rest [Re: gavin eisler] #713125 10/29/17 9:35 pm
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 4,780
gavin eisler Online Content OP
BritBike Forum member
OP Online Content
BritBike Forum member
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 4,780
I mind Swans epic unseizing of the Goldstar, sometimes snake oil is not enough.


71 Devimead A65 750
56 Norbsa 68 Longstroke A65
Cagiva Raptor 650
MZ TS 250
The poster formerly known as Pod
Re: Penetrating oil ATF Acetone versus rest [Re: gavin eisler] #713231 10/30/17 5:41 pm
Joined: Apr 2015
Posts: 743
D
Dibnah Online Confused
BritBike Forum member
Online Confused
BritBike Forum member
D
Joined: Apr 2015
Posts: 743

Re: Penetrating oil ATF Acetone versus rest [Re: gavin eisler] #713234 10/30/17 6:12 pm
Joined: Dec 2013
Posts: 4,837
kevin roberts Offline
DOPE
Offline
DOPE
Joined: Dec 2013
Posts: 4,837
well, i didn't have any ATF, so an hour ago i poured a cupful of acetone and power steering fluid into the plug hole of my seized-up 69 starfire.

ATF and power steering fluid were interchangeable in identical honda and sterling power steering pumps, so we'll see whether they behave similarly in a stuck cylinder.


every day you do not take a chance is a day of your life that you will never get back.
Re: Penetrating oil ATF Acetone versus rest [Re: gavin eisler] #713415 10/31/17 8:53 pm
Joined: May 2014
Posts: 249
F
Fetch Offline
BritBike Forum member
Offline
BritBike Forum member
F
Joined: May 2014
Posts: 249
I had no idea WD40 was that ineffective as a penetrating lubricant, like wise I did not realize how effective an Acetone/ATF cocktail is. Thanks for the vry informative post......I feel wiser already!

Re: Penetrating oil ATF Acetone versus rest [Re: Fetch] #713446 11/01/17 4:21 am
Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 5,546
Magnetoman Online Content
BritBike Forum member
Online Content
BritBike Forum member
Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 5,546
Originally Posted by Fetch
I did not realize how effective an Acetone/ATF cocktail is.
Read this post before you drink the acetone/ATF Kool-Aid.

Re: Penetrating oil ATF Acetone versus rest [Re: Magnetoman] #713449 11/01/17 6:56 am
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 8,008
triton thrasher Online Content
BritBike Forum member
Online Content
BritBike Forum member
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 8,008
Originally Posted by Magnetoman
Read this post before you drink the acetone/ATF Kool-Aid.


The time you spent writing that could have been spent trying it.


Amateur Loctite enthusiast.
Re: Penetrating oil ATF Acetone versus rest [Re: gavin eisler] #713454 11/01/17 10:12 am
Joined: Oct 2012
Posts: 4,717
Hillbilly bike Offline
BritBike Forum member
Offline
BritBike Forum member
Joined: Oct 2012
Posts: 4,717
In 50 years of working on my junker cars/trucks I've found all brands of penetrating oil is more or less useless on fasteners with more than very slight rust...Kroil has as nice smell when burned off with the oxy torch. When you soak a fastener with the oil and it finally unscrews are the threads dry like I always see?..Piston stuck in the cylinder? Car guys say by diesel or kerosene works well...


79 T140D, 96 900M Ducati ....On a bike you can out run the demons..
Re: Penetrating oil ATF Acetone versus rest [Re: triton thrasher] #713469 11/01/17 2:22 pm
Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 5,546
Magnetoman Online Content
BritBike Forum member
Online Content
BritBike Forum member
Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 5,546
Originally Posted by triton thrasher
The time you spent writing that could have been spent trying it.
It's not that simple. If I used acetone/ATF on a random rusted fastener how would I know the fastener wouldn't have been released with the same torque had I not used the acetone/ATF? How would I know it wouldn't have been released with even less (or more) torque had I used Kroil instead?

Kroil on the outside of a rusted fastener picks up a reddish coloration, i.e. a chemical reaction with the rust is taking place. That doesn't happen with either acetone or the one brand and type of ATF I have in my garage. For the reasons I gave in that other post, without a chemical reaction I don't see a plausible reason why a substance would work. Without having a reason to expect that acetone/ATF would work any better on a rusted fastener than, say, sprinkling talcum powder on it there's no reason for me to try to devise an experiment that might yield results I could rely on.

Originally Posted by Hillbilly bike
When you soak a fastener with the oil and it finally unscrews are the threads dry like I always see?
The contact area under a bolt head is a significant fraction of that of the threads. If penetrating oil only succeeded in removing the rust there, without even reaching the threads, it would significantly reduce the torque. Also, because rust requires oxygen to form it "grows" into the threads from the outside in so it will be thickest at the top and so penetrating oil only has to work on the first few threads to significantly reduce the torque.

Last edited by Magnetoman; 11/01/17 2:31 pm.
Re: Penetrating oil ATF Acetone versus rest [Re: Magnetoman] #713489 11/01/17 6:39 pm
Joined: Oct 2012
Posts: 4,717
Hillbilly bike Offline
BritBike Forum member
Offline
BritBike Forum member
Joined: Oct 2012
Posts: 4,717
Originally Posted by Magnetoman
The contact area under a bolt head is a significant fraction of that of the threads. If penetrating oil only succeeded in removing the rust there, without even reaching the threads, it would significantly reduce the torque. Also, because rust requires oxygen to form it "grows" into the threads from the outside in so it will be thickest at the top and so penetrating oil only has to work on the first few threads to significantly reduce the torque.

You must not live in the north east grin Let me be more clear...when and if the nut/bolt unscrews, there is no signs of oil on the threads or the surface the fastener was up against...This isn't usually a problem on bikes. but I often work on older 4x4 stuff...The best improvement on vehicles I have seen is in the last 15 years the use of anaerobic thread sealers on suspension and drive lines by some manufacturers....


79 T140D, 96 900M Ducati ....On a bike you can out run the demons..
Re: Penetrating oil ATF Acetone versus rest [Re: Hillbilly bike] #713496 11/01/17 7:22 pm
Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 5,546
Magnetoman Online Content
BritBike Forum member
Online Content
BritBike Forum member
Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 5,546
Originally Posted by Hillbilly bike
You must not live in the north east grin
If I did I'd have to deal with rusted nuts and bolts all the time, costing me a fortune in bottles of Kroil...

Re: Penetrating oil ATF Acetone versus rest [Re: Hillbilly bike] #713519 11/01/17 11:10 pm
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 6,208
Jon W. Whitley Online Content
BritBike Forum member
Online Content
BritBike Forum member
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 6,208
Originally Posted by Hillbilly bike
When you soak a fastener with the oil and it finally unscrews are the threads dry like I always see?.



Yes, I have noticed that too and I have dealt with quite a few lately.


Jon W.


1957 6T Thunderbird 650
1968 T100R Daytona 500
1971 TR6R Tiger 650
1970 BSA A65F 650
1955 Tiger 100 - Project
1971 BSA A65 650 - Project
1972 Norton Commando 750 "Combat"

Re: Penetrating oil ATF Acetone versus rest [Re: gavin eisler] #713620 11/02/17 5:12 pm
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 310
57nortonmodel77 Offline
BritBike Forum member
Offline
BritBike Forum member
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 310
For commercially bought products, I like Kroil, but have had better success with the 50/50 mix of acetone & FLM/ATF.
My first test was removing a set of aluminum Offenhauser heads off a cast iron 1950 flat head Ford. Forty eight nuts as I recall. I used a number of commercially available chemicals, WD-40 was the worst, but to be fair, it was designed as a water displacement (WD). In the end, some still wouldnt budge, on those, careful application of heat to the nuts did the trick, but with aluminum directly below, I had to be very carefull of the temperature range.
Perhaps not collegiate grade scientific testing, but real world guy in the garage testing, as most of us here are.

As a side note, if you have brake cleaner in your garage, NEVER use it on anything you will be heating with a torch!!!
I dont know any chemists to confirm, or de-bunk this, but why take the chance:

http://www.brewracingframes.com/safety-alert-brake-cleaner--phosgene-gas.html


Magneto & Dynamo restorations & supplies

My Bikes
1948 Norton 500T Trials bike
1950 Norton Model 7
1952 Norton ES2
1957 Norton Model 77
1960 Norton Nomad 600cc Desert sled
1961 Norton ES2 (slimline)
1964 Norton Atlas Scrambler
1972 Bultaco Alpina
Re: Penetrating oil ATF Acetone versus rest [Re: Magnetoman] #713710 11/03/17 2:14 pm
Joined: May 2014
Posts: 249
F
Fetch Offline
BritBike Forum member
Offline
BritBike Forum member
F
Joined: May 2014
Posts: 249
Originally Posted by Magnetoman
Originally Posted by Fetch
I did not realize how effective an Acetone/ATF cocktail is.
Read this post before you drink the acetone/ATF Kool-Aid.


Ok, so I read it. There is a problem flaw in your assumption/observation. Extract from your post:

"Anyway, to free rusty steel fasteners (or piston rings) you need a penetrating fluid with a low enough viscosity and surface tension that it can penetrate through the microcracks in the rust. To some extent ATF in acetone satisfies this. But, you also need an ingredient that chemically "reduces" the iron oxide, i.e. breaks the Fe-O chemical bonds to "dissolve" the rust. Even if a fluid makes it through the microcracks to displace the air in those cracks, unless the oxide bonds are broken the fastener will be held by the still-present oxide with the same strength as before so the presence of a lubricant in the microcracks won't do any good."

You agree the cocktail will penetrate the "microcracks" but then you say you need to "dissolve the rust" or the "the fastener will be held by the still present oxide WITH THE SAME STRENGTH as before"

So I rung up my cousin who is a retired Chemical engineer and scary kinda garage magician when it comes to stuff like this. His reply, "The specific gravity of the Acetone allows it to carry the AFT into all sorts of places, the ATF is a sufficient friction reducer......if it doesn't work, heat it up or drill it out.


Last edited by Fetch; 11/03/17 3:49 pm.
Re: Penetrating oil ATF Acetone versus rest [Re: Fetch] #713719 11/03/17 3:52 pm
Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 5,546
Magnetoman Online Content
BritBike Forum member
Online Content
BritBike Forum member
Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 5,546
Originally Posted by Fetch
here is a problem flaw in your assumption/observation....
So I rung up my cousin who is a retired Chemical engineer and scary kinda garage magician when it comes to stuff like this. His reply, "The specific gravity of the Acetone can carry the AFT into all sorts of places, the ATF is a sufficient friction reducer......if it doesn't work, heat it up or drill it out.
Sorry, but your garage magician cousin is quite wrong. As any chemical engineer should know, specific gravity has nothing to do with the ability of a fluid to penetrate cracks. Viscosity and surface tension do, both of which are unrelated to a fluid's specific gravity.

Heat certainly will help thanks to differential thermal contraction creating additional microcracks, and any substance that reduces friction will help after a fastener starts to move. However, these are red herrings because the issue is what properties a penetrating fluid has to have in order to reduce the required torque all by itself.

Look, anyone who wants to believe acetone/ATF works, that's fine by me. It seems to me that all that need be said on the topic has been so it's a good time to let it go.

Re: Penetrating oil ATF Acetone versus rest [Re: gavin eisler] #718965 12/16/17 3:19 am
Joined: Apr 2017
Posts: 856
M
Mori55 Offline
BritBike Forum member
Offline
BritBike Forum member
M
Joined: Apr 2017
Posts: 856
I worked on bridges for 40 years as a ironworker. And we dealt with old rusted bolts and pins. They were big say 1 1/4 by 6 “ or bigger. usually rusted corroded. Always tried to drive them out by hand or old river guns. Heat was last resort. But I swear by pb blast. I’ve seen 6” bolts that were spraye on one side that had the fluid come out the other side after awhile. These were bolts we couldn’t budge with 16lb beaters until we used the pb blast.

Re: Penetrating oil ATF Acetone versus rest [Re: gavin eisler] #718980 12/16/17 11:57 am
Joined: Jul 2012
Posts: 1,765
A
AngloBike Online Content
BritBike Forum member
Online Content
BritBike Forum member
A
Joined: Jul 2012
Posts: 1,765
I watched a tv programme where they unseized an engine (head off I think) by heating either oil or diesel on a gas ring until it was very hot and then poured it into the cylinder. Probably similar to the gold star technique

Re: Penetrating oil ATF Acetone versus rest [Re: gavin eisler] #718982 12/16/17 12:12 pm
Joined: May 2013
Posts: 6,052
Allan Gill Offline
BritBike Forum member
Offline
BritBike Forum member
Joined: May 2013
Posts: 6,052
Interesting how this old thread has resurfaced, but ok.

I fail to see how acetone will help with de-rusting anything to be quite honest. Apart from it providing an accelerant if heated and lowering the viscosity of the ATF it’s being mixed with, it will have mostly evaporated before the ATF had worked between the bolt and nut.

Someone mentioned the flammability of brake cleaner, well yes it works as a solvent so remove grease and oil’s to stop the disk rusting in storage. However because it is a solvent it will evaporate in atmospheric temperatures (over a time) and because it is a solvent it has a very low flash point.


In the garage we used to use heat and maintenance fluid (like WD 40) to remove stubborn bolts, or in a place where heat would cause much bigger problems (like heating up a ball joint with grease inside) I would either....
Grind the top of the stud and nut until they were flush and shiny, or grind/cut through one face on the nut, whack with a chisel and the nut would spread leaving you able to wind the nut off... in that instance causing minimal damage to the bolt part.


beerchug
Re: Penetrating oil ATF Acetone versus rest [Re: gavin eisler] #719036 12/16/17 8:35 pm
Joined: Dec 2013
Posts: 4,837
kevin roberts Offline
DOPE
Offline
DOPE
Joined: Dec 2013
Posts: 4,837
my starfire is going on six weeks with acetone and power steering fluid. i checked it yesterday, still stuck.

maybe i'll pour in a can of coca cola and see what the phosphoric acid will do.


every day you do not take a chance is a day of your life that you will never get back.
Re: Penetrating oil ATF Acetone versus rest [Re: kevin roberts] #719094 12/17/17 1:28 pm
Joined: Oct 2012
Posts: 4,717
Hillbilly bike Offline
BritBike Forum member
Offline
BritBike Forum member
Joined: Oct 2012
Posts: 4,717
Originally Posted by kevin roberts
my starfire is going on six weeks with acetone and power steering fluid. i checked it yesterday, still stuck.

maybe i'll pour in a can of coca cola and see what the phosphoric acid will do.


It probably has a spun bearing and bent connecting rod grin.. Get that oil out of the cylinder,buy some liquid 100 percent lye drain cleaner and pour it in...Lye will eventually dissolve the aluminum piston and clean the steel bore.....It will also corrode an aluminum rod and head but at least the piston isn't stuck...

Last edited by Hillbilly bike; 12/17/17 1:35 pm.

79 T140D, 96 900M Ducati ....On a bike you can out run the demons..
Re: Penetrating oil ATF Acetone versus rest [Re: gavin eisler] #719098 12/17/17 2:01 pm
Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 10,218
kommando Online Content
BritBike Forum member
Online Content
BritBike Forum member
Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 10,218
I would go coke first as that attacks rust and aluminium oxide, if that does not work then go more drastic.

Re: Penetrating oil ATF Acetone versus rest [Re: gavin eisler] #719100 12/17/17 2:18 pm
Joined: Dec 2013
Posts: 4,837
kevin roberts Offline
DOPE
Offline
DOPE
Joined: Dec 2013
Posts: 4,837
less drastic is the way to go, i think. i want some sort of motorcycle thing at the end of this, rather than a big puddle of shiny goo.


every day you do not take a chance is a day of your life that you will never get back.
Re: Penetrating oil ATF Acetone versus rest [Re: gavin eisler] #722643 01/19/18 10:16 pm
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 4,780
gavin eisler Online Content OP
BritBike Forum member
OP Online Content
BritBike Forum member
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 4,780
Found this vid on you tube , accordng to the beardy guy Acetone plus rust gives CO2 , Water , and crucially ferric carbide , which is brittle, supposedly how this works.
Unlike the guy I do not reccomend adding a 14 year old Single malt to the mix, nutter.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o7hpmmlYBFM


71 Devimead A65 750
56 Norbsa 68 Longstroke A65
Cagiva Raptor 650
MZ TS 250
The poster formerly known as Pod
Page 1 of 2 1 2

Moderated by  Alan_nc 

Home | Sponsors | Newsletter | Regalia | Calendar | Bike Project | BritBike Museum | Spiders Cartoons | DVD- Manuals & Parts books
Upgrade to: Gold Membership | Premium Membership | Vendor Membership | Site Sponsor Membership
CLICK HERE to see VIDEO
How the Electric Roller Starter works.


ORDER on eBay. CLICK HERE!

Buy your Electric Roller Starter here
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.3