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Re: 1962 Catalina [Re: Magnetoman] #707839 09/09/17 5:09 pm
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In the real world it's not the peak BHP that matters, it's the area under the graph


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Re: 1962 Catalina [Re: Magnetoman] #707978 09/10/17 11:52 pm
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Here is my take with the 2446/2446 cam combination. My GS feels more like my modern appliance in the mid range than a 50's Brit bike. I know the top end rush isn't there, but I am going faster than I need to be getting into a corner. There is lots of mid-range power which is what is needed in the real world. With a DBD head and 1038 Concentric, it still pulls well when the revs are up.

Yea, I like the combination!


Never underestimate the human ability to elevate stupid to a whole new level!.
Re: 1962 Catalina [Re: Magnetoman] #708069 09/11/17 6:49 pm
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The carburetion continues fighting me every step of the way. After the previous uneventful 8 mile ride the only things I did were bolt on the air box, add UNI coarse foam filter material, and top up the tank with another ~1.5 gal. of fuel. After doing this it wouldn't start. So, do I take the time to pull the rollers and battery out of the garage, or just use the steep driveway to bump start it? Thanks to bad judgment, the driveway won. Unfortunately, the problem with a steep hill is once you reach the bottom and it hasn't started you're SOL because you now have a 400 lb. motorcycle at the bottom of a hill that's too steep to push it back up.

Actually, it did start (sort of) and slowly got me 1/4 mile up the road acting over-rich but showing hints it might clear up, before it died. Failing to start it once it died I changed the plug and removed the filter material. It then started but still barely ran at tickover speed with the throttle wide open (i.e. like the behavior it had with the cursed carb), emitting big puffs of black smoke from the exhaust. It got me back to the bottom of the driveway before dying, so I abandoned it to get the pickup.

By the time I loaded the Catalina and got it outside the garage the "food poisoning" my wife had dealt with for two days was getting worse so I insisted on taking her to Urgent Care (I had insisted the previous day but she refused). After a short stop there it was straight to the hospital for the next ~26 hours until her appendix was removed. Contrary to what I thought, I learned that once a patient is hooked up to antibiotics and shows no other signs, acute appendicitis isn't considered emergency surgery. So she was bumped from the schedule three times I'm aware of. Finally, they removed her appendix 18 hours after her original date with the surgeon.

Surgery was yesterday and she's home now so at least all is well with her if not with the Catalina. However, I've been married long enough to know that for at least some days it would be foolish for me to even think of asking "Can you fetch things for yourself while I go to the garage and take care of the Catalina instead of you?" When I do get to the garage the first thing I'm going to check is if there's a pack rat nest or other hidden blockage in the filter housing.

I'm still hoping for information on a supplier for high quality fork seals.

Re: 1962 Catalina [Re: Magnetoman] #708106 09/12/17 12:06 am
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Good luck to your wife on recovery....had to do that myself a few years ago.

And good plan to act disinterested in the bikes for a few days!

IME, Paul Geoff in the U.K. has had good fork wear parts. One of my A65's has had the same seals from Geoff for 11 years now and they are still dry.....

No doubt that last statement will jinx me....


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Re: 1962 Catalina [Re: Magnetoman] #708125 09/12/17 3:36 am
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Originally Posted by Rich B
....had to do that myself a few years ago.
To digress, an interesting part of the ordeal was for a half hour or so in the ER being on the other side of a curtain from a guy who was trying with all the smoothness in the world to talk the staff into a prescription for Vicodin or Oxycodone, and various staff members in succession politely and non-confrontationally not buying his story. He left with a shot of a non-narcotic muscle relaxant for his self-described muscle spasms that were too deep to be detected externally. The fact he was in their computer system played a role in not giving him a prescription.

Originally Posted by Rich B
IME, Paul Geoff in the U.K. has had good fork wear parts.
Found his web page (it's Goff). Email sent. Thanks for the tip.

Re: 1962 Catalina [Re: Magnetoman] #708142 09/12/17 9:38 am
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Originally Posted by Magnetoman
Originally Posted by Rich B
....had to do that myself a few years ago.


Originally Posted by Rich B
IME, Paul Geoff in the U.K. has had good fork wear parts.
Found his web page (it's Goff). Email sent. Thanks for the tip.


Well, it is Goff unless you are using a device with auto-correct and the user doesn't catch the "correction"..........

eek


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Re: 1962 Catalina [Re: Magnetoman] #708183 09/12/17 4:29 pm
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Best wishes to your wife and hope she recovers fully in record time. My suggestion is that you do not fall to temptation within the next few days and say "Stop goldbricking, Honey, I've got a Gold Star to fix!" A little self-sacrifice at this time will pay dividends in the long run. On the other hand, one must always be careful about setting a precedent!

Re: your carb. When I have problems with a bike, especially after recently working on it, I usually start with the assumption that I screwed something up. Usually that assumption is correct! Accordingly, if it was me, I would look at the carb again, perhaps a jet unscrewed, or the needle came off the clip or something like that. It is probably something simple.

Ed from NJ

Re: 1962 Catalina [Re: edunham] #708186 09/12/17 4:54 pm
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Originally Posted by edunham
Best wishes to your wife and hope she recovers fully in record time. ... On the other hand, one must always be careful about setting a precedent!
Thanks for your sentiments and valuable spousal advice. Adding to my misery is the Catalina is still in the bed of the pickup where I see it constantly from the house, trying to lure me into doing something I'll regret. It's all I can do not to be caught looking at it rather than looking 100% attentive.

Originally Posted by edunham
Accordingly, if it was me, I would look at the carb again,
Although I didn't do much to the bike since it ran a few days ago, my plan is to completely undo what I did (thanks to my notes, I know what that is). Removing the air box accomplishes that. If it runs without the air box that will say the problem is to the left of the carburetor inlet (i.e. somewhere in the entire universe other than within the bike itself), and if it doesn't run the problem is to the right of the inlet.


update: I was sent to pick up some chairs from Crate & Barrel so I explained it would be better to take the pickup in case the boxes were large. So, the bike is now out of the truck and back on the lift. I did, however, leave the ramps in the truck in case they are needed again once I'm able to get back to the Catalina.

Last edited by Magnetoman; 09/12/17 10:34 pm. Reason: update
Re: 1962 Catalina [Re: Magnetoman] #708587 09/15/17 9:26 pm
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Originally Posted by Magnetoman
Although I didn't do much to the bike since it ran a few days ago, my plan is to completely undo what I did (thanks to my notes, I know what that is). Removing the air box accomplishes that. If it runs without the air box that will say the problem is to the left of the carburetor inlet (i.e. somewhere in the entire universe other than within the bike itself), and if it doesn't run the problem is to the right of the inlet.
I've now determined with certainty that the problem is somewhere in the universe to the left of the carburetor inlet. Specifically, the problem is the airbox itself (probably aided by the silencer; see below).

I removed the airbox. Then, with full choke and ~1/3 retard it started on the first kick and ran laps of the driveway with no signs of 8-stroking. Since after warming up it idled I decided to replace airbox items one at a time to determine at what point the signs of richness returned. First attempt was just holding the airbox with outer screen on the carb. It 8-stroked when I blipped the throttle. Airbox with the coarse screen pieces had I cut to place on the carburetor side of the foam, as well as the outer cover. It 8-stroked. Finally, the airbox alone without even the cover, i.e. an essentially unobstructed 9"-long large diameter pipe straight in. It still 8-stroked. Huh? How can that be?

When I blip the throttle a fog of fuel comes back out of the inlet, appearing to contain as much fuel as must be sucked into the engine to make it run. This situation is not unlike what happens to a Clubman with a megaphone on resonance, where the air passes twice over the jets in the carb causing richness and requiring a 'lean' needle in a GP. In my case enough fuel must escape from the blowback fog into the surrounding air that when air is sucked back in on the next stroke there isn't enough "extra" fuel in that air to cause richness. However, even though the air flows freely through the 9"-long pipe, with the airbox in place that fog of enriched air doesn't have enough time to pass all the way back through it before it gets sucked back in on the next stroke, passes over the jets, and presents the spark plug with a way too rich mixture.

So, why is this happening to my Catalina? I have the factory jetting in it so even with modern fuel shouldn't the suggested jetting be pretty close? In light of the experimental data, I suspect the critical difference is that the factory jetting was determined for the open-pipe Catalina sold by the dealers, whereas I have a silencer on my Catalina. Despite how it sounds, my silencer must be restrictive enough that the pressure in the pipe remains high enough to cause a significantly higher blow back through the carburetor during the period of valve overlap. Either that, or there's a hidden switch on the carburetor inlet that detects whenever an airbox is attached and dumps raw fuel into the inlet. I'm going with the silencer explanation.

For now the Catalina shall remain free to breathe the open air. I'll take it out this weekend to -- finally -- begin the break-in process while seeing what tweaks are needed to the jetting to get best performance.


Update: I inspected the inside of the silencer with a borescope and found a plate near the entrance with 12 holes of dia. ~3/16" (total area ~0.33 in2), there to divert most of the flow to the annular area of filter material. I made an extension for a drill bit with three set screws to clamp the bit and used one of the existing holes as I pilot to drill a 1/2" hole. When I probed that hole I didn't find any further obstruction upstream so I then drilled four more 1/2" holes for a total area increase in area ~0.98 in.2. This means the new area in that plate is ~4x that of the original. I started the bike and this time didn't see a cloud of fuel. I then tried the bare airbox and it seemed to have no effect so I went for the full outfit (screens, foam, and cover). Again, no effect(!) when I rev'd the engine.

I can't tell how much louder I made the silencer by drilling those holes since the bike is parked between two cars and under an overhang. Tomorrow I'll bolt the air filter assembly back on. If when I'm riding it I feel reducing the back pressure some more might help it will be easy enough to drill another 1/2" hole or two.

Last edited by Magnetoman; 09/16/17 2:13 am. Reason: update
Re: 1962 Catalina [Re: Magnetoman] #708700 09/16/17 9:02 pm
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After installing the air filter assembly this morning the Catalina didn't want to start so I dragged out the rollers. It started immediately on them and after warming it up a little with a few laps of the driveway I found the idle was set pretty high and the idle mixture screw was 2 turns out. I readjusted both, got dressed, and started the bike without the rollers (it was still warm so this wasn't a good test of cold starting). I then took it on a 10-mile ride. I would have gone further but it was clear as soon as I reached a faster road that the needle needs to be dropped a notch. However, the mixture seems to be great at smaller throttle settings, i.e. the 4 cutaway seems right.

Not wanting to break in the bike in by never exceeding ~45 mph I headed home to put it back on the lift where I could drop the needle. However, since the bike was well warmed up by that point I fiddled with the idle adjustments some more, lowering the slide further and settling on the mixture screw 1-1/8 turns out. It's not incredibly sensitive to the setting, but 1/4 turn less than that definitely causes the rpm to drop.

I had lunch and then dropped the needle a notch using a pencil (to support the clip at the top of the carburetor), 4" bolt (to support the slide assembly as high as possible), haemostat (to compress the spring), alligator clip (to support the needle so it didn't fall into the carburetor when the clip was removed), and needle nose pliers (to remove and install the clip). It's a fiddly job to do it this way but faster than removing the air box and carburetor itself.

After dropping the needle a notch. and the ignition retarded by ~1/3 (but no choke), the bike started on the first kick and I left it idling for a few minutes while I got dressed. It was still idling when I came back out and I took it for another 10 mile ride. This time the jetting was perfect. What a difference a single notch makes. What a joy it is to ride. I couldn't ride further because of an obligation this afternoon but tomorrow will try to put a reasonable number of miles on it. Oh, and I can't tell that the silencer is any louder now than it was before I drilled the holes. It's completely acceptable. To me, at least, and I hope the neighbors wouldn't disagree...

The Smiths lists don't show a speedometer for '62 Catalinas, but I have an S.525/3/N (1650 turns/mile) appropriate for a '59 Catalina on my bike. Conveniently, there's a radar speed warning display (but no camera) near my house so I now know my speedometer reads 10% low at an indicated 40 mph. That difference is within the expected variance of tire diameters (a 4.00-18 Heidenau K60 is on the rear).

addendum:
In case anyone looking for jetting to use in their Catalina comes across this thread in the future, the current configuration of my carburetor is:

Carburetor is 1-5/32" Type 389 Monobloc (as used in '56-'63 non-Catalina Gold Star scramblers)
pilot 30
pilot mixture screw 1¼ turn out
needle jet 106 (measures 0.1065"–0.1066", which my measurements show is the proper size for nominal "106" needle jets)
needle on 3rd notch
main 320
cutaway 4


Last edited by Magnetoman; 09/17/17 6:33 pm. Reason: addendum
Re: 1962 Catalina [Re: Magnetoman] #708842 09/18/17 1:42 am
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I think I've mastered the Catalina's starting ritual (no tickle, no choke, ~1/3 retard, kick through briskly 3-4 times with lifter engaged, ease past TDC, and one kick) and today I put another 50 miles on it, stopping from time to time to make notes of little issues to deal with. For example, the twist grip 'catches' slightly at ~1/4 which is annoying when starting out from stoplights or trying to maintain ~40 mph in traffic. But, overall the Catalina performed great, and I'm quite fond of the selection of ratios in its SCT gearbox. Also, for all speeds and conditions up to the maximum of 60 mph I reached today the current jetting isn't just AMAL-perfect, it's Mikuni-perfect.

The six-spring clutch worked flawlessly, neither slipping nor requiring any more force than is needed for clutches on modern bikes. Also, I can pull up to a stoplight in gear and select neutral after stopping without a problem. Detailed directions are given in the currently-imageless thread on rebuilding these clutches.

I'm not sure whether or not I mention it in that rebuild thread, but in the primary I use Castrol Dextron VI ATF for GM vehicles. No real thought went into my selection of this brand or specific type of ATF, and I can't imagine a different brand for, say, Fords wouldn't work as well, but since I know this one works I'll be sticking with it in the future.

Every mile builds confidence (or overconfidence?...), but I'm not quite ready to venture outside the range of cell towers. After dealing with today's list of minor issues I have a ~100-mi. route planned next and, should that be uneventful, another ~100-mi. route to the top of a nearby mountain where at least some of it will be without cell coverage. At that point (~270 miles total) it will be time for its first oil change. I'll do the second change ~500 miles after that and then switch to some "reasonable" (TBD) regular distance and/or time intervals.

Re: 1962 Catalina [Re: Magnetoman] #709342 09/22/17 11:15 pm
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I hadn't started the bike since completing Sunday's run, but today I opened the petcock (no tickling), kicked it through 3-4 times with the compression release, eased it past TDC, ~1/3-1/2 retard, and it started on the first kick. It started with the same routine twice more, but I skipped the kicking-through part of the routine at the filling station and it failed me. The station was on a gentle slope so I bump started it. It started almost immediately

Exchange at first fuel stop with a guy at the next pump talking on his cell phone:

Guy: Nice bike, what kind is it?
Me: It's a BSA Gold Star.
G: What year?
M: 1962.
G: It's great looking. What does 'BSA' stand for?
M: Birmingham Small Arms.
G: Is it German?
M: No, it's English.
G: My friend says it's German.
M: OK.

Using Google I had planned a 100-mile route within cell phone range but it ended up at 95.1 miles (on my GPS) so I must have mis-remembered some jog early in the route. Two miles of the route were on the Interstate and I happened to merge behind a semi. That was the fastest I went and my GPS reported the maximum speed today was 63.9 mph. The handling got "interesting" in the buffeting of the slipstream so I tightened the damper a few turns as soon as I exited the Interstate (I definitely didn't feel like taking my hands off to tighten it while I was being blown around). Then, affter a 10 mile nearly straight road I made a 90-deg. turn onto another road and in the turn it felt like one of the tires had gone flat so I pulled over. The tires were fine and at that point I remembered the damper. All was fine after loosening it.

Later on the ride, when I pulled off to take a photo of the bike with mountains in the background, I discovered a tiny defect in my plan to call my wife if the bike died and I needed rescuing -- my phone was at home on the charger. Other than that tiny flaw, my plan was perfect...

The tripmeter and odometer read 14% low but the odometer has the additional feature that the ones digit sometimes brings along the tens and hundreds when it rolls over. As a result there were 81.5 miles on the trip meter but 431 on the odometer. I filled the tank shortly after I started and again shortly before the end and over the 85.5 miles between I used 1.30 gallons, averaging fully 65.8 mpg. Not bad at all. My average speed when moving was 33.7 mph, with that average held down by the total of ~20 miles of city riding.

The first piece of "bad" news from today's ride is that the annoying throttle 'catch' at ~1/4 is there when the engine is running, but absent when not, and it's internal to the carburetor. Since it's at such a well-defined position of the throttle I wonder if it's a burr or other defect in the guide "rail" inside the slide. It's annoying enough that the carburetor is going to have to come off and apart.

The second piece of bad news is the clutch slips a bit. It did not do this on Sunday so I'm strongly tempted to blame the ATF, which I've never used in a primary before. Before taking off the leak-tight primary to tighten the springs I'm going to drain the ATF and use oil instead to see if that cures the slipping. Unfortunately, if slippery ATF molecules are the culprit, and if they've insinuated their way into the cork and won't come out without a fight, the clutch will have to come apart so the plates can be cleaned with solvent. First, though, I'll see if 100 miles worth of oil cures the clutch.

Re: 1962 Catalina [Re: Magnetoman] #709438 09/23/17 4:43 pm
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I'm not a fan of using ATF in a primary if you're using a cork clutch. I have had good luck spraying clutches on my M20 and Dominator with isopropyl alcohol from a squeeze bottle to get rid of ATF. Might as well try it before you take it all apart. You need to rotate the clutch and actuate it a few times while spraying.

bueno suerte!

Re: 1962 Catalina [Re: Magnetoman] #709451 09/23/17 6:21 pm
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Originally Posted by L.A.kevin
isopropyl alcohol from a squeeze bottle to get rid of ATF.
Your post gave me an idea for something to try, but my original plan didn't work. My plan had been to put ~500 cc of the appropriate solvent in the primary case, turn the clutch some number of times with the lever pulled in to separate the plates, let the solvent dissolve the ATF, and drain the solvent.

The left footpeg on the Catalina is placed so it isn't possible to fully remove the drain screw from the primary case so the ATF is currently very slowly draining past the screw. Meanwhile, I put some fresh ATF in the bottom of a container and tested which solvent dissolved it. Unfortunately, ATF is immiscible in isopropyl, acetone, ethanol and methanol. I didn't test MEK or trichloroethylene since I would be reluctant to use them for fear of possible effects on the primary cover gasket and sealants, if nothing else.

Although common solvents are out, good old 50W Valvoline came to the rescue. It turns out that AFT dissolves in oil. So, once the ATF has fully drained I'll fill the primary with engine oil and let it remove the remaining ATF from the plates as I ride. If there is an improvement in the clutch after the next 100-mile ride I'll probably drain and refill the primary again when I change the oil in order to eliminate the residual ATF. If not, I'll have to open the case and deal with the clutch.

Re: 1962 Catalina [Re: Magnetoman] #709455 09/23/17 6:58 pm
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Assuming of course the clutch slip is caused by the ATF


BSA B31 500 "Stargazer"
Greeves 200 "Blue Meanie"
Greeves 350
Greeves 360
Suzuki GSX1100 EFE "Sorcerers Apprentice"
GM500 sprint/LSR bike "Deofol"
Jawa 500 "Llareggub"
Aprilia RSV Mille "Lo Stregone"
'35 & '36 OK Supreme
Kawasaki ZZR1400 "Kuro no senshi"
Re: 1962 Catalina [Re: Andy Higham] #709456 09/23/17 7:14 pm
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Originally Posted by Andy Higham
Assuming of course the clutch slip is caused by the ATF
Although my fingers are crossed hoping that oil is the answer...
Originally Posted by Magnetoman
I'm strongly tempted to blame the ATF,
...I'm mentally prepared if that doesn't work:
Originally Posted by Magnetoman
Before taking off the leak-tight primary to tighten the springs...


Re: 1962 Catalina [Re: Magnetoman] #709465 09/23/17 8:53 pm
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Everytime I've tried ATF in an old style cork clutch, it's caused slippage. Newer clutches (composite types like I had on my commando) seem to like it.

Good luck, and remember, there's always the triumph 4 spring conversion.

K

Re: 1962 Catalina [Re: Magnetoman] #709476 09/23/17 11:20 pm
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Originally Posted by Magnetoman
the annoying throttle 'catch' at ~1/4 is there when the engine is running, but absent when not, and it's internal to the carburetor.
Offline Shane in Oz made the reasonable suggestion that maybe the slide was being sucked against a ridge in the bore when running so when I took the carburetor apart I looked and felt for signs of any such wear, or any hesitation of the slide when it was pushed against the inlet or outlet side. However, the bore was as smooth as a baby koala's behind. Disappointed that I couldn't find anything I could identify as the possible source of the 'catch' I reassembled the carburetor and attached the air cleaner assembly again. I'm going to have to buy a new supply of Loctite if I have to do this very many more times.

Originally Posted by Magnetoman
I'm going to drain the ATF and use oil instead to see if that cures the slipping.
225cc of ATF had gone in, there hadn't been signs that even a drop had leaked since then, but only 190cc eventually drained out. So, 35cc is MIA.

I took the bike out for a 5-mile run. There was no sign whatever of the 'catch' in the throttle so I can only hope that whatever I don't know that I did to the carburetor permanently fixed it. The clutch still slips but I'm going to drain the primary in the hopes the missing 35cc of ATF is now mixed with the oil, refill it, and take the Catalina on a 100-mile ride tomorrow.

Update: It turns out by loosening the four bolts holding the footpeg bracket it's possible to move it enough to allow the the primary drain screw to be removed. Which is good because otherwise it was going to take until Christmas for the engine oil to drain from the case. Again only 190cc came out, which means the other 35cc is pooling at a slightly lower spot. It also means that the 225cc of oil I put in after draining the case this morning still left the mixture with 16% ATF (35/225=0.155). With the new oil the ATF is now down to 2.4% (.155x.155=0.024).

Last edited by Magnetoman; 09/24/17 12:17 am. Reason: Update
Re: 1962 Catalina [Re: Magnetoman] #709484 09/24/17 1:23 am
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Originally Posted by Magnetoman
. It also means that the 225cc of oil I put in after draining the case this morning still left the mixture with 16% ATF (35/225=0.155). With the new oil the ATF is now down to 2.4% (.155x.155=0.024).



LOL, If a grasshopper can hop half way to a plant on each hop, how many hops will it take for him to get there? crazy

JR

Re: 1962 Catalina [Re: Jerry Roy] #709494 09/24/17 3:29 am
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Would that be Zeno's grasshopper?

Re: 1962 Catalina [Re: L.A.kevin] #709538 09/24/17 5:16 pm
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Yep, being chased by a pair o' ducks. whistle

CZ

Re: 1962 Catalina [Re: Magnetoman] #709564 09/24/17 10:13 pm
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Magnetoman Online Content OP
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I didn't quite make the full 8000 ft. altitude today because my ventilated jacket wasn't quite up to the early fall temperature near the summit. The real reason is an event at the top made for very heavy traffic. Although the scenery was great being stuck in the line of vehicles snaking up the mountain wasn't. However, after I turned around near the top of the mountain I had ~5 miles of clear road until I caught up with a line of downhill traffic. Although the road was asphalt, the Catalina was completely in its element flicking back and forth on the tight, relatively slow turns. Anyway, thanks to another 76 miles today there are now ~250 miles on the Catalina so it's back on the lift waiting for an oil change. I'll do the next one ~500 miles from now.

The mysterious 'catch' in the throttle at 1/4 did not return today. However, replacing the ATF with oil did nothing for the clutch slip at the start of the ride, although within 20 miles I could almost convince myself it was cured. Now that I'm back I almost can convince myself to give the oil more time to work. Sadly, though, it looks like the 100% leak tight primary gasket will have to come off. After I clean the plates with a solvent that removes ATF I'll add 20% to the clutch tension just to be sure. The clutch lever is light enough that another 20% won't be objectionable. Also, the fork seals I ordered from Paul Goff arrived yesterday so I might as well take care of the forks so I can then declare the Catalina 100% done.

There's lots of speculation, but no reliable information, about if and by how much timing should be altered for today's fuels. Some sites say modern fuel "burns slower" so the timing should be retarded, but offer no references or data to support that claim. Anyway, when I installed the magneto after rebuilding it I set the Catalina's timing at 39-deg. If I forget to retard it when I accelerate out of a tight corner at very low rpm I can hear the engine ping until it builds up a few revs. But, otherwise not, so the timing isn't significantly off, if at all. On several long uphill stretches today, and with the engine above 2000 rpm (there's no tach), I held a steady throttle as I retarded the spark. I felt no effect until the lever had been moved by ~1/3 of its travel, at which point the power started to fall off. These experimental observations aren't conclusive, but they are consistent with modern fuel burning at essentially the same rate as ancient fuel so that handbook timing values still apply.


Re: 1962 Catalina [Re: Magnetoman] #709692 09/26/17 3:36 am
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After changing the oil today I measuring the present clamping force of the clutch (11 ft.lbs., as it was when I set it months ago.), then removed the primary cover, cleaned the clutch and assembled it with a clamping force 36% tighter than before (15 ft.lbs.). The force at the clutch lever is still less than that of my Triumph 500 so it shouldn't be objectionable. Once I know whether or not this fix has taken care of the slipping I'll revised the relevant information in my 6-spring clutch rebuild thread.

The primary oil level comes to the bottom of the chain so only gets splashed around when the engine is running. Since the clutch plates are clamped together the only time that splashed oil has a chance to enter between them is when stopped at a light if the clutch lever is pulled in, or the brief time when shifting between gears. And, even then, centripetal force of the spinning plates acts against oil making it in. Given this, perhaps should have waited longer to give the engine oil a fair chance to displace the ATF from between the clutch plates.


Re: 1962 Catalina [Re: Magnetoman] #709694 09/26/17 5:26 am
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I've always found that if there is oil in a primary case, it will get onto the plates and they will stay oily.


Amateur Loctite enthusiast.
Re: 1962 Catalina [Re: Magnetoman] #709761 09/26/17 7:07 pm
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Originally Posted by triton thrasher
I've always found that if there is oil in a primary case, it will get onto the plates and they will stay oily.
I certainly believe that. It's just a question of how long it takes to fully get in there as well as to displace whatever was already there (e.g. ATF).

A year ago Dave-NV briefly described how he applied gaskets and I copied his method at that time on both the Catalina and BB. Neither leaked a single drop since then (although, see #9 below), and when I removed the Catalina's primary cover yesterday the gasket came with it to be reused as Dave said it would.

After tightening the clutch (~1 ft.lb. additional torque/0.5" travel of the operating arm for every 1/4 turn of the nuts as described elsewhere) I cleaned the exposed face of the used gasket and the flange on the engine, applied Permatex to each, and bolted the cover back on. I gave the Permatex 24 hours to set before putting oil in because I didn't want to add oil immediately and the next opportunity to do so was today. It appears to be leak tight, but the real test could take a week or more before enough oil can find its way out, collect on the frame, and drip onto the floor.

In case anyone cares, my implementation of Dave's sealing procedure when starting with a fresh gasket is:

0. Clean residue from screw holes using 1/4-20 and 5/16-18 BSW taps.

1. Thoroughly clean both flange surfaces.

2. Apply Yamabond 4 "Semidrying Liquid Gasket" to the cover.

3. Stick the composite (not paper) gasket to the Yamabond, using a knife to remove any excess. (n.b. Yamabond is applied only between the cover and one side of the composite gasket; not on the "top" of the gasket that mounts against the engine.

4. Mount the timing cover on the engine using "reasonable" torque on the screws to press the composite gasket firmly into the Yamabond and cover.

5. Let sit overnight.

6. Carefully remove the cover from the engine.

7. Scrape away any excess Yamabond that has oozed out while also cleaning the flange on the engine.

8. Apply a thin coat of Permatex "Permashield Gasket Dressing & Sealant" to both the "top" of the composite gasket and the engine flange.

9. Allow 20-30 min. for the solvent in the Permatex to evaporate. This is important! I didn't wait the first time I used Permatex a year ago, because I hadn't bothered to read the instructions on the tube, and the cover had a slow leak

10. Mount the cover, somewhat tightening the screws in a criss-cross fashion, then repeating to the final torque. I use a torque wrench for this, tightening to 2 ft.-lb. the first time, then to the final 4 ft.-lb. on the second pass.

11. After 10 min. retorque the screws to 4 ft.-lb.

Last edited by Magnetoman; 09/26/17 9:46 pm. Reason: composite, not paper
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