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441 #709378
09/23/17 4:11 am
09/23/17 4:11 am
Joined: Dec 2013
Posts: 3,823
ohio, usa
kevin roberts Offline OP

fefsa
kevin roberts  Offline OP

fefsa
Joined: Dec 2013
Posts: 3,823
ohio, usa
way back in 1978, i remember a bike magazine writer talking about the brand-new XS11, one of the big four's first 11 second bikes.

1978 was the year all that happened, with the honda CBX, the kawasaki KZ1000turbo, the suzuki GS1000, and the yamaha XS11.

anyway, he wrote that the XS11 was so smooth and vibration-less, that on a scale of 1 to 10 . . .

" . . . the XS11 scored a zero, while the BSA 441 victor was as close to an 11 as anyone could stand."

(as near as i can remember.)

ever since then, i've wanted a 441, and i just took one home today.

[Linked Image]


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Re: 441 [Re: kevin roberts] #709381
09/23/17 5:54 am
09/23/17 5:54 am
Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 731
Sacramento California
R
Rusty Goose Offline
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Sacramento California
Congrats! I just got one too, though mine is now down to a bare frame and boxes of bits. I hope to have it all together making growling noises for Halloween!


1967 A65 Lightning
1967 Triumph T20 Mountain Cub
1967 Moto Guzzi V7
1969 B44 Victor Special
1966? Royal Enfield Interceptor
Re: 441 [Re: kevin roberts] #709409
09/23/17 12:26 pm
09/23/17 12:26 pm
Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 470
new jersey usa
P
pushrod tom Offline
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Posts: 470
new jersey usa
Congrats Kevin. Noe you can join the shakey bunch! Mine is lots of fun to ride so long as you are not planning to cruise at much over 60mph. And you can't beat the looks!! PRT

Re: 441 [Re: kevin roberts] #709479
09/24/17 12:06 am
09/24/17 12:06 am
Joined: Dec 2013
Posts: 3,823
ohio, usa
kevin roberts Offline OP

fefsa
kevin roberts  Offline OP

fefsa
Joined: Dec 2013
Posts: 3,823
ohio, usa
so here it is, a super-nice 1968 victor special i bought from from grandpaul. came from texas to ohio on a truck, and i picked it up in columbus at the cedar rapids terminal, rather than try to coordinate with the truck driver near my house on a work day, with 45 minutes notice . . .

anyway, it's a really nice machine. mostly original, no dents, nothing important missing, and frankly, pretty damn iconic:

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

only problem is, i can't get the SOB started, and it's just about broken my ankle kicking back.

i don't have any problem gently raising the piston up and over TDC on compression, using just the kick lever. i can feel when it goes over the top without needing the compression release. unless the use of that device is more subtle than i understand?

anyway, i've spent all afternoon positioning the piston at various distances beyond TDC on the compression stroke, and then kicking machine over. the result is always one of three things.

1) nine times out of ten, it kicks back with a fury that i have never experienced on a twin or triple.

2) every now and then it rolls over without a burble or a kick back

3) sometimes it rumbles as if it's going to start, but doesn't have enough inertia to make it happen.

right now my right ankle is about terminal with kick-back disease, and i have a terrific bruise on my thigh from oil-tank-cap-trauma, and the victor is currently resting victorious in my shop with the lights out.

how do i determine the position of the crank that will allow this thing to start? i've been kicking british machinery for over forty years, but this is my first thumper.

what is the purpose of the compression release? what is it's use supposed to facilitate?

do all victor owners have the same scars i'm going to have?





live every day.
die once.
Re: 441 [Re: kevin roberts] #709486
09/24/17 1:35 am
09/24/17 1:35 am
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 124
Anchorage Alaska USA
M
Mitch Offline
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Posts: 124
Anchorage Alaska USA
need to re-set the ignition timing. I could literally start mine wearing my bedroom slippers

Re: 441 [Re: kevin roberts] #709488
09/24/17 1:37 am
09/24/17 1:37 am
Joined: Jan 2013
Posts: 179
Costa Mesa/Mammoth Lakes, CA
C
Chris Johnson Offline
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Chris Johnson  Offline
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Joined: Jan 2013
Posts: 179
Costa Mesa/Mammoth Lakes, CA
You're pushing the kicker til it comes up hard on compression, then sneaking it past TDC? Hard to do without compression release or lots of patience. It should be a 1 kick bike, or 2 kicks this way. Kick-back and bruises are a sign or bad practice or bad tune.

Chris

Re: 441 [Re: kevin roberts] #709489
09/24/17 1:46 am
09/24/17 1:46 am
Joined: Dec 2013
Posts: 3,823
ohio, usa
kevin roberts Offline OP

fefsa
kevin roberts  Offline OP

fefsa
Joined: Dec 2013
Posts: 3,823
ohio, usa
i can gently tap the piston up through compression past TDC with the kick start lever. it's not hard to do and i can feel the piston roll over TDC with my foot.

i start my fixed-advance LSR triumph this way, because otherwise it launches me over the bars.

i honestly have no idea what the compression release is supposed to do for me. the crank rotates against compression a bit at a time if i gently tap on the kickstart, and then moves past it and down on the power stroke. is the compression release supposed to make it easier to position the piston? if so, i'm clueless as to how it's supposed to help.

i'll check the static timing in the morning. can't use a strobe until it starts. it has marks, right? lol, i haven't looked.


live every day.
die once.
Re: 441 [Re: kevin roberts] #709492
09/24/17 2:34 am
09/24/17 2:34 am
Joined: Jan 2013
Posts: 179
Costa Mesa/Mammoth Lakes, CA
C
Chris Johnson Offline
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Chris Johnson  Offline
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Posts: 179
Costa Mesa/Mammoth Lakes, CA
Yea the compression release makes it easier to push over TDC on compression. There should be a full advance pointer behind the little cover on the primary side.

Chris

Re: 441 [Re: kevin roberts] #709495
09/24/17 3:35 am
09/24/17 3:35 am
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 6,379
NYC and York PA
wadeschields Offline

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wadeschields  Offline

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Posts: 6,379
NYC and York PA
Congrats .... Good luck.... Does sound like it needs a bit of fettling. One of my singles wont go past TDC without the release pulled and the other slips past easy like yours is... But that all the release does.... No other magic wink


http://wadeschields.tumblr.com/

Jack of all trades . Master of fun! wink

Beer is not the Answer.... Its the Question..... The answer is YES

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Re: 441 [Re: kevin roberts] #709497
09/24/17 5:17 am
09/24/17 5:17 am
Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 1,129
Sydney, Oz
S
Shane in Oz Offline
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Sydney, Oz
It does sound like the timing is advanced. If it's still on points, the auto-advance unit may have stuck.

Other than that:
The valve lifter helps you to position the piston just past compression.
Push down steadily on the kickstart lever until the compression stops the downward movement. Pull in the valve lifter and ease the piston over TDC (about 1/4 of the kickstart arc)
Let the lever back up to the top of its travel and give the famed "long swinging kick" DO NOT open the throttle.
The trick to avoiding kickback is to take the kickstart to the full extent of its travel, where the kickstart rack disengages from the mainsheet pinion so it can't kick back even if the engine does. This is easier said than done.

Re: 441 [Re: kevin roberts] #709525
09/24/17 3:02 pm
09/24/17 3:02 pm
Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 1,324
SE Ohio
No Name Man Online content

Life member
No Name Man  Online Content

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SE Ohio
Hey Kevin...one thing you can try which hasn't been mentioned. If it is over-tickled and flooded you have good conditions for backfire. Pull the valve lifter and kick through several times then start over. Works sometimes.


69 A65T
71 B50T
85 K100RS
54/59 A10SR
69 B44VS
71 A65FS
95 Trident
Too much moderation is bad for you.

Re: 441 [Re: kevin roberts] #709530
09/24/17 4:07 pm
09/24/17 4:07 pm
Joined: Dec 2013
Posts: 3,823
ohio, usa
kevin roberts Offline OP

fefsa
kevin roberts  Offline OP

fefsa
Joined: Dec 2013
Posts: 3,823
ohio, usa
ouch

me, my limp, and my purple bruise are off again to beard the dragon . . .


live every day.
die once.
Re: 441 [Re: kevin roberts] #709549
09/24/17 7:24 pm
09/24/17 7:24 pm
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 749
Farnham, Surrey, UK
gunner Offline
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gunner  Offline
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Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 749
Farnham, Surrey, UK
Most likely the ignition timing is out and this combined with a worn carb, worn AAU and weak electrical system can cause all manner of problems.

My B44SS has a Boyer fitted together with a JRC 28mm carb (Keihin PWK clone), high output alternator and solid state regulator/rectifier.

I never use the compression release lever and my procedure for starting is as follows:-
- turn on fuel taps and ignition
- pull up the choke button on the carb
- press down on kick starter until compression is felt
- when compression is felt, kick hard

I can usually start my B44 first or second kick hot or cold and I rarely get any kickback.

IMHO kickback is a symptom showing that adjustment of the ignition, carb and electrics is less than perfect, so I would try to get these components working as best as you can, which in other words means replacement with OEM parts or upgrading to modern equivalents.

Additionally, I should mention that when starting I normally have the bike on the center stand and that my weight is approx 186 pounds. These factors probably help to ensue there is sufficient energy to turn the engine without kickback.

In my view, kick-starting with the bike on the side stand or not on any stand will result in some of the kick energy being absorbed by the suspension which will result in less energy being transferred to direct engine revolutions. Therefore I always use the center stand when starting even if it results in more wear (which seems unlikely).

Last edited by gunner; 09/24/17 8:00 pm.

1968 A65 Firebird
1967 B44 Shooting Star
1972 Norton Commando
Re: 441 [Re: kevin roberts] #709566
09/24/17 10:52 pm
09/24/17 10:52 pm
Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 1,324
SE Ohio
No Name Man Online content

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No Name Man  Online Content

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SE Ohio
I see nothing wrong with kicking on the centerstand but neither of my singles have one. I did learn to stand beside the B44 SS I was riding in 1967 to stop bruising my leg on the oil cap. Yes...ouch. Being ignorant of the compression release I just kicked it on past compression. Not being a 250 this often had unpleasant results. Knee into elbow, kicker in the shin, etc. In my opinion if a Victor is in good tune (and you do everything right) it will start with no stress at all.


69 A65T
71 B50T
85 K100RS
54/59 A10SR
69 B44VS
71 A65FS
95 Trident
Too much moderation is bad for you.

Re: 441 [Re: kevin roberts] #709592
09/25/17 4:12 am
09/25/17 4:12 am
Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 731
Sacramento California
R
Rusty Goose Offline
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Rusty Goose  Offline
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R
Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 731
Sacramento California
Perhaps pull the spark plug and kick it through to make sure you have spark? Or is the kick back your taking about is it back firing? Then never mind, timing is everything.

Last edited by Rusty Goose; 09/25/17 4:14 am.

1967 A65 Lightning
1967 Triumph T20 Mountain Cub
1967 Moto Guzzi V7
1969 B44 Victor Special
1966? Royal Enfield Interceptor
Re: 441 [Re: kevin roberts] #709594
09/25/17 5:17 am
09/25/17 5:17 am
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 124
Anchorage Alaska USA
M
Mitch Offline
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Mitch  Offline
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Posts: 124
Anchorage Alaska USA
no center stand on the Victor. the SS had one though. could be the auto advancer.... check that first, otherwise, its time to re-time

Re: 441 [Re: gunner] #709619
09/25/17 2:43 pm
09/25/17 2:43 pm
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 3,696
Sydney Australia
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BSA_WM20 Offline
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BSA_WM20  Offline
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Joined: May 2004
Posts: 3,696
Sydney Australia
Originally Posted by gunner


Additionally, I should mention that when starting I normally have the bike on the center stand and that my weight is approx 186 pounds. These factors probably help to ensue there is sufficient energy to turn the engine without kickback.

In my view, kick-starting with the bike on the side stand or not on any stand will result in some of the kick energy being absorbed by the suspension which will result in less energy being transferred to direct engine revolutions. Therefore I always use the center stand when starting even if it results in more wear (which seems unlikely).


Since around 78 when I recovered from ripping off the right hoof I have been starting all my bikes standing alongside with the left foot.
That included the B50 T the A65L the B40 the SR 500 & now the M20.
IMHO the biggest reason for kick back is plain old experience.
People who have been riding them regularly seldome have much in the way of problems.
As for rear spring compression, again not a problem unless you are " jumping from a great hight starting " as opposed to " kick " starting.
However 2 things become very apparent when you stand next to the bike

1) the kick start lever travels significantly beyound vertical before reaching the end of the stroke .
At the end of the stroke the kickstart pedal does not kick back regardless of what the engine does. and it is easier to keep full weight on the pedal till after the engine fires, or stops turning backwards.

2) because your weight is on your right foot and not on your wrists you no longer inadvertently open the throttle as you leap in a great arc around the handlebars.

Weight is not important if you are KICK starting because it is a KICKING action done with the thigh muscles not the bum fat.
At the 2nd BSA national I had the pleasure of showing a nice young lass how to start her B25, standing beside it.
She would have been hard put to top 90lbs wringing wet in full riding gear, but in a matter of minutes she was firing it up without any problems, despite being some what the worse for wear after a late night at the bar.

Last edited by BSA_WM20; 09/25/17 2:44 pm.

Bike Beesa
Trevor
Re: 441 [Re: kevin roberts] #709670
09/25/17 10:11 pm
09/25/17 10:11 pm
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 6,931
Laredo (South) Texas, USA
GrandPaul Offline
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GrandPaul  Offline
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Laredo (South) Texas, USA
It has a Boyer electronic ignition on it, and I timed it with the help of a couple of the lads at a BMOA rallye way back in 2008 (I think BritBodger chimed in with help!).

Anyway, back then I only weighed 125#, but I could start it fairly easily. I hadn't ridden the bike since about 2009-10.

The carb was cleaned, it is 100% original spec, but the slide has typical wear. Gas tank was bone dry with no residue at all. New petcock with clean hoses. Good spark on a new battery. I put about a gallon of fresh mid-grade in it.

My back is not what it used to be, and I tried a good bit of kicking but gave up before needing 2-3 days to recover.

I really don't see how the ignition timing could be off.

I don't think the valves are off adjustment, but always a remote chance. It's got good compression, so I doubt it.

Try 2-person push starting in 2nd with clutch and compression release pulled in, then stay on the seat and pop the clutch but hold the compression release a second or two. Should fire...

Last edited by GrandPaul; 09/25/17 10:13 pm.

GrandPaul (does not use emoticons)
Author of the book "Old Bikes"
Too many bikes to list, mostly Triumph & Norton, some BSA & European
"The Iron in your blood should be Vintage"
Re: 441 [Re: kevin roberts] #709678
09/25/17 11:26 pm
09/25/17 11:26 pm
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 3,802
argyll. scotland, uk
gavin eisler Online content
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gavin eisler  Online Content
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Posts: 3,802
argyll. scotland, uk
The blue crimp on the coil looks well dodgy. maybe remake the ignition circuit conns if there is enough spare length on the wires.


71 Devimead A65 750
56 Norbsa 68 Longstroke A65
Cagiva Raptor 650
MZ TS 250
The poster formerly known as Pod
Re: 441 [Re: kevin roberts] #709687
09/26/17 2:25 am
09/26/17 2:25 am
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 749
Farnham, Surrey, UK
gunner Offline
BritBike Forum member
gunner  Offline
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Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 749
Farnham, Surrey, UK
If a Boyer is fitted then you need at least 12.5V at the battery and Boyer box. At lower voltages the Boyer will go full advance, hence the kickback.

See This Link for an explanation on Boyer trouble shooting.


1968 A65 Firebird
1967 B44 Shooting Star
1972 Norton Commando
Re: 441 [Re: kevin roberts] #709690
09/26/17 3:13 am
09/26/17 3:13 am
Joined: Jun 2014
Posts: 104
Mullaloo Western Straya
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Bodie Offline
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Mullaloo Western Straya
Also another little trick I've found that Boyer has tucked up it's sleeve is if it doesn't fire up pretty soon after you switch the ignition on you'll have an even harder time trying to start it ..... maybe like gunner said "it goes full advance or something ?" .. I don't really know > but it can be damn hard to start by just continually kicking & kicking & kicking ......... Try turning the ignition off just for a second or two then turn it back on immediately before kickstarting again , I read somewhere Boyer goes into a sleep mode or something after about 20 - 30 seconds if switched on & not fired up ? .. takes 2 fast engine revolutions to then re-awaken it > I doubt that's something you'll manage to do on a 441 ...... Turn it off & start fresh again .

Steve

Re: 441 [Re: kevin roberts] #709718
09/26/17 2:09 pm
09/26/17 2:09 pm
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 6,931
Laredo (South) Texas, USA
GrandPaul Offline
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GrandPaul  Offline
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Laredo (South) Texas, USA
Battery is a brand new AGM with EXCELLENT voltage.

You can get all the fast revs you want (to wake up the Boyer) with the de-compressor.

Electrical connection may LOOK dodgy, but I guarantee you can't pull the wire out of the connector by hand. I was taught how to crimp connectors in the Navy.

Last edited by GrandPaul; 09/26/17 2:09 pm.

GrandPaul (does not use emoticons)
Author of the book "Old Bikes"
Too many bikes to list, mostly Triumph & Norton, some BSA & European
"The Iron in your blood should be Vintage"
Re: 441 [Re: kevin roberts] #709780
09/26/17 9:35 pm
09/26/17 9:35 pm
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 2,580
Springfield Nebraska
Richrd Offline
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Richrd  Offline
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Springfield Nebraska
Low voltage + Boyer equals kickback

Those coil wires look corroded, hench high resistance.

Kicking a b44 without easing over compression will strip starter gears.

Maybe you need to find out how far you are from No name man.


Rich (member ThreeMustGetBeers)
"It's not always about going fast. Sometimes it's nice to slow down" (Wendy E.2016)

69 bonney
72 commando
75 commando interstate
06 Suzu..Suzu.. uh appliance
couple of beesas a ducati
and the Snake Bike
and a Honda?
Re: 441 [Re: kevin roberts] #709839
09/27/17 2:06 pm
09/27/17 2:06 pm
Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 174
Nova Scotia, Canada
K
koncretekid Offline
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Nova Scotia, Canada
"Low voltage + Boyer equals kickback" Exactly! Try jumper cables from a fully charged battery or a running machine. Even relatively new AGM batteries have been known not to provide enough amperage to power the Boyer. Once you get it running, check the voltage output at the battery to make sure the charging system is working.

Do you have a leak-down tester? It is absolutely the best way to determine where your compression is leaking. You should NOT be able to ease the kick arm over compression on a well-sorted B44 without the compression release, as the piston will rotate way past TDC if the compression is good. So flood the carb, leave the throttle closed, even back out the throttle stop a couple of turns to begin with (it may have been opened too far by someone else), ease it over compression using the compression release, let the arm come back up, and give it a good full swing kick. If it doesn't start after two kicks, then open the throttle stop 1/2 turn at a time. Once you have it running and warmed up, adjust the carb settings to get it to idle (well we call it "idle", but on a single with an AMAL, it doesn't idle like a twin!) When it's hot, you may have to open the throttle a bit to start it. But when the motor is cold, screw in the throttle stop about a half turn after flooding the carb, and it should start. Only back the throttle stop out after the motor is warmed up. You need to find some of those extended throttle stop screws so you can adjust it with your fingers.

Easy, peasy!

Tom

Last edited by koncretekid; 09/27/17 6:31 pm. Reason: out instead of in

Life's uncertain - go fast now!
Re: 441 [Re: kevin roberts] #710371
10/03/17 5:17 am
10/03/17 5:17 am
Joined: Dec 2013
Posts: 3,823
ohio, usa
kevin roberts Offline OP

fefsa
kevin roberts  Offline OP

fefsa
Joined: Dec 2013
Posts: 3,823
ohio, usa
damn, this job schedule is awkward. four on, four off, switch day for night . . . no time for the important stuff like cursed victors.

anyway, here's where i am:

--the motor has killer 160 psi compression, which is why it did such a number on my ankle earlier.

--pushrods are in the right places, and the valves are adjusted correctly. compression release has a bit of free play in the wire.

--timing mark on the rotor corresponds to 6.5 +/- mm on a timing tool stuck down the plug hole, so it's where it's supposed to be.

--AGM battery is 13+ volts.

--the Boyer is now set according to specs with one rotor magnet looking out through the 9 o'clock hole in the stator, when the timing mark in the primary cover lines up with the pointer. only one pointer in the cover. it was a bit advanced earlier, which is why it kicked back so hard. doesn't do that now.

--the Boyer produces a miniature roman candle of sparks at the plug when the black and white wires are scratched together. i have an ancient in-line red neon timing light, and when it's hooked up it also flashes several times when i kick the motor over with the plug screwed into the head. so there's a spark in there, because i can see it.

--carb is a 930, with early screw-in 25 pilot jet or late no pilot jet (i've tried two bodies), 220 main, 107 needle jet, two-line needle set in bottom (or middle) groove, no. 3 slide. i've poked out the pilot circuit with a no. 78 drill, and everything else is clean inside and blown out with air.

--there's fuel getting into the cylinder (it kicked back like a mule at first), and if i stick a lit propane torch down the plug hole after i kick for a bit, i get a nice little WHOOM . . . gas is certainly getting in there.

so i have compression, spark, and fuel. but when i kick it all i get is a single thump from the exhaust, sometimes two. never any more than that. after a while i might can get a backfire.

all i can think if is that maybe the Boyer stator is sparking the motor way retarded. when set in the six o'clock hole, it kicked back, hard, every time--obviously too advanced. but set in the 9 o'clock hole it has not kicked back one time, but still never tries to catch.

my window is closing for the next four days because of my work schedule, but when i return to it i'm going to try advancing the spark at the Boyer stator a little at a time, ignoring the alternator timing marks. i already know it's possible to have it set too advanced, so if it's too retarded now maybe i can creep up on the magic setting.

the Boyer box is marked "BSA and Triumph singles," but there isn't any marking on the stator. i would have thought any stator would have worked with any 360-degree twin or any single, but maybe not, and maybe i have a mismatched setup? did BSA ever make a 441-250 primary cover with the pointer in a more retarded position? maybe i have the wrong cover?


live every day.
die once.
Re: 441 [Re: kevin roberts] #710391
10/03/17 1:29 pm
10/03/17 1:29 pm
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 6,931
Laredo (South) Texas, USA
GrandPaul Offline
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Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 6,931
Laredo (South) Texas, USA
Curiouser and curiouser.


GrandPaul (does not use emoticons)
Author of the book "Old Bikes"
Too many bikes to list, mostly Triumph & Norton, some BSA & European
"The Iron in your blood should be Vintage"
Re: 441 [Re: kevin roberts] #710411
10/03/17 4:09 pm
10/03/17 4:09 pm
Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 9,293
Scotland
kommando Online content
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Scotland
When I have done all the checks you have done and still it won't start it has always been timing, maybe now too retarded. You set the initial timing at fully advanced with the magnet under the 9 o clock and that should be the pointer on the alternator rotor mark, you have done that so the pointer to mark relationship must be suspect, could be a rotor from something else. Wooden rod down the plug hole is your next option, or just advance the Boyer rotor and see if it makes a bigger sound.

Re: 441 [Re: kommando] #710421
10/03/17 5:18 pm
10/03/17 5:18 pm
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 749
Farnham, Surrey, UK
gunner Offline
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Farnham, Surrey, UK
A couple of thoughts which may or may not help:-
- although you have 13+ volts at the battery, do you have the same reading at the coil and Boyer power leads? It may be that you have a bad connection somewhere so check all the connections and ignition switch for voltage drop.
- using a rod down the plug hole only gives a rough indication of ignition timing. I would take the primary cover off and fit a timing disc on the rotor end. You then need to find TDC by using a dial gauge or finding a suitably sized bolt screwed into the plug hole to use as a dead stop. Turn the engine over by hand gently until the piston touches the dead stop bolt and note the degrees, then turn the engine backwards and note the degrees. Half the degrees between these two points is TDC.
- from the TDC position you have to turn the engine backwards past the full advance position and then forwards to take up any backlash in the gears
- its fairly tricky to get the Boyer or indeed any EI stator to be spot on since the rotor is turning at half engine speed, so its common to repeat the procedure several times until its working


1968 A65 Firebird
1967 B44 Shooting Star
1972 Norton Commando
Re: 441 [Re: kevin roberts] #710433
10/03/17 7:00 pm
10/03/17 7:00 pm
Joined: Dec 2013
Posts: 3,823
ohio, usa
kevin roberts Offline OP

fefsa
kevin roberts  Offline OP

fefsa
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ohio, usa
there was full battery voltage at the Boyer box-- the connections and wiring are fine. i already tried jumping the box directly to the battery and didn't get anything different. there's no question that the box is putting out good sparks.

the pointer on the cover and the mark on the rotor seem pretty close to 6.6 mm BTDC on a ruled TDC tool that i use, but i dunno, at this point.

got to go drive frac sand for four days now, but when i get back to it i'll start advancing the spark until it kicks me again.


live every day.
die once.
Re: 441 [Re: kevin roberts] #710438
10/03/17 7:13 pm
10/03/17 7:13 pm
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 5,033
Stone Creek OH USA
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Rich B Online happy

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Stone Creek OH USA
If you fancy a road trip, I likely have all the bits to put a perfectly good set of points on that bike. laughing

Bring marshmallows to keep the turkey mafia at bay!


Life is too short to drink cheap, bad beer.
Re: 441 [Re: kevin roberts] #710447
10/03/17 9:07 pm
10/03/17 9:07 pm
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 3,802
argyll. scotland, uk
gavin eisler Online content
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argyll. scotland, uk
Try swapping the leads at the pickup plate, easy check, if they are the wrong way it puts the timing miles out and a bang in the exhaust is the result.Only takes a minute to try. This happened to me after I took the rotor off, if the rotor goes on 180 out the wrong poles are being seen by the pickups.


71 Devimead A65 750
56 Norbsa 68 Longstroke A65
Cagiva Raptor 650
MZ TS 250
The poster formerly known as Pod
Re: 441 [Re: kevin roberts] #710478
10/04/17 7:39 am
10/04/17 7:39 am
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 444
S.E. Ohio
H
HillbillyBarr Offline
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S.E. Ohio
If all else fails haul it down here and we'll pull the parts off one of my Victors ( aau/points plate, stator and rotor) and install them on yours. Then if we get it running we could reinstall your parts one at a time to find out what's wrong .I've got the time/ tools and working parts. Just a thought. Gene

Re: 441 [Re: kevin roberts] #710506
10/04/17 2:34 pm
10/04/17 2:34 pm
Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 470
new jersey usa
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pushrod tom Offline
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new jersey usa
Ah Kevin, I feel your pain. I had not run my SS for at least 6 months. Symptoms same as yours. A week of kicking with loud backfires etc. and much wire/voltage testing on the Sure Fire. No joy with moving the timing around so I set it on the mark and took it up to my pals shop with the idea of motoring it on the dyno to verify timing and maybe try to start that way. Mario, who has considerably more mass than I do said "Let me try it." Two kicks and off she went!! A big WTF from me and also much joy. So long as it was running we put a light on it and adjusted the carb a bit. Since then I put some AV gas in and it has been working well. That said, I should try it today. If it starts we will take 'er out for a spin. Cheers, PRT

PS OT's tips are right on!

Re: 441 [Re: kevin roberts] #710655
10/05/17 10:43 pm
10/05/17 10:43 pm
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 1,322
melbourne florida
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bodine031 Online content
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melbourne florida
Can't stand over it to start as you found out with the oil cap. I have a 69 VS since 1981. (My Dirt Basher) Boyer, Kuni 30mm round slide. Podronics, and a Bikemaster gel electrolyte MG4L going on 3rd year the gel seems to tolerate the vibration better/longer. 85/140 gear box, Type F ATF primary and Valvoline VR1 50wt engine. Mine is easy to start cold, warm, hot which is a nice thing when you stall it in the mud!!! Big fun bike Good luck with it and enjoy

Re: 441 [Re: kevin roberts] #710666
10/06/17 1:00 am
10/06/17 1:00 am
Joined: Dec 2013
Posts: 3,823
ohio, usa
kevin roberts Offline OP

fefsa
kevin roberts  Offline OP

fefsa
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ohio, usa
thank you all for the suggestions. catching up,

the compression is fine, as is the compression release. the compression does force the piston down after TDC, though. i discovered this while holding the rockers in my fingers and tapping the crank over TDC. it kept turning farther than i had realized, so now i've been using the compression release.

perhaps a test with a 6CA in it would be instructive. i really don't think there's anything wrong with the spark itself, though, as it lights one up strong enough to hurt me if the timing is advanced experimentally. my ankle still pains me after a week or so. timing is apparently spot on, but i'm suspicious.

i've tried swapping the leads to the stator white for yellow (lol, not on purpose) and it didn't make any difference.

i live on the top of big hill, because i've been flooded five times, traumatically, and vowed never to do that again. this weekend i'm going to re-check everything and then start rolling the victor down the hill to see what happens.

at any event, three of these just arrived in the mail:

[Linked Image]

these are bonded rubber to steel, with a 42mm OD and a 25mm ID that can be opened up to about 30mm. the bolt centers are the rare AMAL-only 2-inch, so these can be used to mount a spigot carb to any AMAL manifold base without an adapter. if i can't get a Concentric to work on this puppy, i'll try a VM mikuni with an enrichener circuit and run from there. i understand mikunis lots better than amals.

things like thisare sold for mikuni kits on british machines originally equipped with amals, and cost lots of money. these were US$12 each. the 42mm portion is just rubber, and may not be stiff enough to hang onto a rubber sleeve, which the victor will need if i put a 30mm VM on it. any little 25-30mm OD spigot carb will slip right in directly.


live every day.
die once.
Re: 441 [Re: kevin roberts] #710686
10/06/17 4:00 am
10/06/17 4:00 am
Joined: May 2010
Posts: 65
norcal
L
Lyle Hill Offline
brokesinceacquir
Lyle Hill  Offline
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Joined: May 2010
Posts: 65
norcal
I have a 68 B44VS starts 1st kick after this procedure.
Turn on fuel with mixture set 1/2 turn clockwise and flood with no ethanol fuel.
kick thru with comp release a couple kicks, and one kick with clutch lever in.
then flood again and position kick lever 10 minutes past tdc with compression release
raise kick lever to top, turn on ignition and do not touch hand throttle when kicking thru,
should start and run on its own, five minutes riding later, adjust mixture back to normal setting
I put a cable tie on the hex extended mixture screw cut a half inch out for a lever

in a perfect world, this bike runs great, good luck

I also see you need work on the front brake, either new shoes or less cable outer to achieve
more than 90 degree leverage before applying brake like I had to do.


ported 32mm, AMAL Premier, Carrillo rod, external oil return filter


Lyle '68 BSA B44VS

Re: 441 [Re: kevin roberts] #710807
10/07/17 6:30 pm
10/07/17 6:30 pm
Joined: Dec 2013
Posts: 3,823
ohio, usa
kevin roberts Offline OP

fefsa
kevin roberts  Offline OP

fefsa
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Posts: 3,823
ohio, usa
it runs!

earlier i'd noticed that the black/yellow and black/white wires at the Boyer had been crossed. i thought it was me that had done it and put them back around right. then this morning i had the points cover opened and noticed that they had been switched there too. once those Boyer bullet connections get warm and shrink, they never come apart again, so i left them and went and switched the wires at the Boyer box back the way they'd been.

doesn't matter which wire goes to which as long as the pattern is the same at the box and at the stator.

anyway, i made sure to keep the key switch off until i was actually ready to kick, and then turned it back off if it wouldn't catch. kicked it a few times and it started up and ran. other teething issues to work with, but it goes!


live every day.
die once.
Re: 441 [Re: kevin roberts] #710844
10/08/17 3:47 am
10/08/17 3:47 am
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 6,931
Laredo (South) Texas, USA
GrandPaul Offline
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GrandPaul  Offline
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Laredo (South) Texas, USA
HOORAY!!!

Dang, I sure hope this doesn't become my second "never should have sold it" deals...

I'm keeping my Rickman Montesa 250 for dirt dinking, but it can never be road legal...


GrandPaul (does not use emoticons)
Author of the book "Old Bikes"
Too many bikes to list, mostly Triumph & Norton, some BSA & European
"The Iron in your blood should be Vintage"
Re: 441 [Re: GrandPaul] #710845
10/08/17 4:21 am
10/08/17 4:21 am
Joined: Dec 2013
Posts: 3,823
ohio, usa
kevin roberts Offline OP

fefsa
kevin roberts  Offline OP

fefsa
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Posts: 3,823
ohio, usa
trade you back for your dreer norton?


live every day.
die once.
Re: 441 [Re: kevin roberts] #710864
10/08/17 11:42 am
10/08/17 11:42 am
Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 470
new jersey usa
P
pushrod tom Offline
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new jersey usa
Looks like yer in the club now. Got the secret handshake, er kick, and everything!!

Re: 441 [Re: kevin roberts] #710902
10/08/17 8:04 pm
10/08/17 8:04 pm
Joined: Jul 2017
Posts: 31
Worcestershire ..near kiddermi...
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Richard B Offline
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Richard B  Offline
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Joined: Jul 2017
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Worcestershire ..near kiddermi...
I have a B40 with high.comp piston. Also an old. Boyer. On early boyers they also spark after 5 seconds of the coil energising. So if engine is slowly eased onto comp and the 5 secs is up it cuts off power to coil and hence sparks. This was confirmed to me by Boyer.
But on mine I now ease it over compression (not fussy how much). Then turn on tickle carb then a long easy kick the inertia stored in crank throws it over the next compression and starts. I had the same trouble, but now usually first kick.
If I tickle too much I just give it more throttle.

Re: 441 [Re: kevin roberts] #710939
10/09/17 12:59 am
10/09/17 12:59 am
Joined: Dec 2013
Posts: 3,823
ohio, usa
kevin roberts Offline OP

fefsa
kevin roberts  Offline OP

fefsa
Joined: Dec 2013
Posts: 3,823
ohio, usa
i'm pretty sure turning on the key first while i messed with everything else contributed to the problem, as it took a bit of time to tickle and crank the piston up and over. now i know.

i've had a markiii on old T120 for thirty years without this problem, though.

should have paid more attention to the wires like you said, gavin.


live every day.
die once.
Re: 441 [Re: kevin roberts] #710989
10/09/17 1:37 pm
10/09/17 1:37 pm
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 6,931
Laredo (South) Texas, USA
GrandPaul Offline
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GrandPaul  Offline
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Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 6,931
Laredo (South) Texas, USA
hee hee

The Dreer Norton is finally about to get ridden like it should have been all these years. I might just put a new set of Premier concentrics on it, as the FCRs are over the top and can't accommodate filters. I'm also going to make proper headlight mounts for it, the cheesy temporaries just ain't cutting it.

Okay, that's enough off-topic, back to 441s.

Here is the back story to this bike, and it's a decent one:

My first contact with Britbikes as an adult came to me in the form of trading a nice central A/C system that I pulled out of my Dad's house for 5 bikes from a guy in my neighborhood, Keith, that had a small nondescript shop called "Whole Earth Motorcycles" for exactly the reason you might think. I got an almost-rolling '67 Bonnie with the top end off, including the pistons, that had been out in the weather for a few years, a Suzuki Cyclone 400, A Bultaco Pursang 250 flat tracker, Honda ATC90 3-wheeler, and a '68 Yamaha YDS3 GP250 replica (the Bonnie being the Britbike content).

Anyway, Keith rode a BSA441 Victor with 70s Britbike suspension (conical front brake), dirt bike handlebars, SuperTrapp exhaust, and a Mikuni carb. I had been fiddling with a throttle-triggered fuel injector for my Honda CB550 and couldn't get it to do what i wanted, and he seemed real keen on it, so I sold it to him. He was over the moon, as it seemed to be EXACTLY what that Mikuni needed on the 441.

So, down the road a while, my oldest brother expressed an interest in buying the 441 from Keith, and they made a deal. Oscar promptly replaced the Mikuni mess with a proper AMAL carb, and used it to commute for a year or so. Then, he became partner in an engineering firm that more or less frowned on his means of transportation, so they offered him an allowance, and he sold me the Victor. Around that time, Keith had taken in a much more original 441 (although sad and rusty), which I figured I might rather have, as I had by that time become a "keeper of the Britbike faith" so to speak. Since Keith really wanted his old bike back, the deal was all the sweeter for me.

And there we have the beginning of this bike's story! I did a full overhaul, had the frame and black parts industrially painted, and refurbished the bike to a reasonable level of originality, including a new OEM muffler, grab bar, seat cover, and lots of little stuff. The carb was clapped out, but I managed to find an original/correct one that's on it now. I did a bit of cow trailing around our property over the years, took it to a few bike shows where at seemed to be an "old dude" magnet. As my bike collection grew, it sat for longer and longer periods, 'till it was finally parked for the last time over 10 years ago.

I sold off nearly 20 bikes from my collection before I came to terms with letting this one go; I'm really glad it's going to a good home, and that it's breathing once again...


GrandPaul (does not use emoticons)
Author of the book "Old Bikes"
Too many bikes to list, mostly Triumph & Norton, some BSA & European
"The Iron in your blood should be Vintage"
Re: 441 [Re: kevin roberts] #714151
11/07/17 2:42 am
11/07/17 2:42 am
Joined: Dec 2013
Posts: 3,823
ohio, usa
kevin roberts Offline OP

fefsa
kevin roberts  Offline OP

fefsa
Joined: Dec 2013
Posts: 3,823
ohio, usa
something odd.

i timed the Boyer on this bike statically, the normal way, putting the alt rotor mark against the pointer and then setting a magnet behind the 9 o'clock hole in the Boyer stator. got it started, rode it a some, then set it up so i could strobe it and be a bit more exact. used a car battery to power the strobe light.

oddly, the digital timing light shows no advance of the timing with rpm--none. whatever the timing mark is set to at idle stays the same at any higher rpm. i didn't recheck battery voltage, but will when i get back to it. the mark advances or retards normally when the stator is rotated.

anybody ever have a Boyer do this?


live every day.
die once.
Re: 441 [Re: kevin roberts] #714159
11/07/17 5:21 am
11/07/17 5:21 am
Joined: Dec 2013
Posts: 3,823
ohio, usa
kevin roberts Offline OP

fefsa
kevin roberts  Offline OP

fefsa
Joined: Dec 2013
Posts: 3,823
ohio, usa
yes, at both ends.

they were long ago reversed at the pickup coils (by/bw, and bw/by), and are firmly shrunk together there, so i left them that way and made sure they were reversed again at the transistor box. the actual fully advanced timing is correct, according to the marks in the primary. runs well, just doesn't retard at low rpms.

i thought a Boyer wouldn't run at all on stock timing marks if tbe pickups were reversed.


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die once.
Re: 441 [Re: kevin roberts] #714178
11/07/17 2:40 pm
11/07/17 2:40 pm
Joined: Dec 2013
Posts: 3,823
ohio, usa
kevin roberts Offline OP

fefsa
kevin roberts  Offline OP

fefsa
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ohio, usa
shoot, i'm 300 miles away right now. i'll switch em back as soon as can and see what it does.

runs pretty well when its running. i imagine retardable spark advance would make it easier to start.


live every day.
die once.
Re: 441 [Re: kevin roberts] #714218
11/07/17 7:53 pm
11/07/17 7:53 pm
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 749
Farnham, Surrey, UK
gunner Offline
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gunner  Offline
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Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 749
Farnham, Surrey, UK
About 10 years ago I had a B40 with a similar problem using a Boyer analogue system, the bike started Ok but when ridden on the road the performance was terrible. After checking the ignition advance using a strobe I found there was none, in other words, the Boyer unit was shot.

I had fondly imagined that EI units were indestructible, however I now believe that they can go bad for various reasons including too high voltage, faulty rectifiers supplying AC instead if DC volts, excessive vibration & heat etc.

Checking the advance curve using a strobe is the easiest way to ensure the EI unit is working, the main problem is ensuring the bike doesnt jump around the garage at 3000 RPM which can make checking the full advance problematic smile


1968 A65 Firebird
1967 B44 Shooting Star
1972 Norton Commando
Re: 441 [Re: kevin roberts] #714232
11/07/17 9:48 pm
11/07/17 9:48 pm
Joined: Aug 2015
Posts: 1,111
Bolton Lancs UK
A
Andy Higham Offline
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Andy Higham  Offline
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Joined: Aug 2015
Posts: 1,111
Bolton Lancs UK
On the old Boyer analogue units, if the pickup wires are crossed the ignition will not advance


1955 BSA B31 500cc "Stargazer"
1962 Greeves 200cc "Blue Meanie"
1962/67 Greeves 350
1967 Greeves 360 Challenger
1984 Suzuki GSX1100 EFE "Sorcerers Apprentice"
GM500cc sprint/LSR bike "Deofol"
Jawa 500cc "Llareggub"
2003 Aprilia RSV Mille "Lo Stregone"
Re: 441 [Re: kevin roberts] #714240
11/08/17 12:05 am
11/08/17 12:05 am
Joined: Dec 2013
Posts: 3,823
ohio, usa
kevin roberts Offline OP

fefsa
kevin roberts  Offline OP

fefsa
Joined: Dec 2013
Posts: 3,823
ohio, usa
people say that occasionally the boyers were crossed inside during assembly. maybe the pickup wires were backwards in the first place to correct this and i put them wrong by matching the colors up. it's an old analog, for sure. can't read much on the box anymore.

i took it out on the gravel roads and hay fields a few days ago and burned up a half tank of gasoline about as fast as it would burn. then the next day i woke up feeling like someone had worked me over with a baseball bat.

if i'd known getting old would be so difficult i would have gotten started earlier.


live every day.
die once.
Re: 441 [Re: kevin roberts] #714272
11/08/17 2:59 pm
11/08/17 2:59 pm
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 6,931
Laredo (South) Texas, USA
GrandPaul Offline
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GrandPaul  Offline
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Laredo (South) Texas, USA
Originally Posted by kevin roberts
if i'd known getting old would be so difficult i would have gotten started earlier.

I could not have stated that sentiment any better!


GrandPaul (does not use emoticons)
Author of the book "Old Bikes"
Too many bikes to list, mostly Triumph & Norton, some BSA & European
"The Iron in your blood should be Vintage"
Re: 441 [Re: kevin roberts] #714279
11/08/17 4:00 pm
11/08/17 4:00 pm
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 3,802
argyll. scotland, uk
gavin eisler Online content
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Posts: 3,802
argyll. scotland, uk
My old red Boyer circa 2000 runs fine with 6V coils ( twin),if the leads are reversed it puts the timing miles out and creates a bang in the exhaust pipe.
Boyer used to offer a great service, return the box to the Factory with some cash for postage and they would send back a working unit if it was faulty. Dont know if this still applies. i never used it but others certainly did.


71 Devimead A65 750
56 Norbsa 68 Longstroke A65
Cagiva Raptor 650
MZ TS 250
The poster formerly known as Pod
Re: 441 [Re: kevin roberts] #725489
02/13/18 9:54 pm
02/13/18 9:54 pm
Joined: Dec 2013
Posts: 3,823
ohio, usa
kevin roberts Offline OP

fefsa
kevin roberts  Offline OP

fefsa
Joined: Dec 2013
Posts: 3,823
ohio, usa
got some parts to simplify the ignition:

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

i like electronic ignitions in general, but this one has been a bear. with a 12-degree mechanical AAU, i can expect some retard to make starting easier.

couldn't get the Boyer to retard at all. it would run at full advance without retarding at low rpm, which could have been reversed points leads, i'm told. except i couldn;t start it with the points leads the other way. so we'll see what original low-tech can contribute.

the AAU is interesting. i have never owned an AAU that had a visible scribe mark on the points cam for setting the points. i've always just turned the little bastards until the points were all the way up. maybe this one will save a minute or two.

Last edited by kevin roberts; 02/13/18 9:57 pm.

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die once.
Re: 441 [Re: kevin roberts] #725494
02/13/18 9:58 pm
02/13/18 9:58 pm
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 7,388
scotland
triton thrasher Online content
BritBike Forum member
triton thrasher  Online Content
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Posts: 7,388
scotland
You've got the famous "quicky-wear" nylon points heel.


Amateur Loctite enthusiast.
Re: 441 [Re: kevin roberts] #725515
02/14/18 12:38 am
02/14/18 12:38 am
Joined: Dec 2013
Posts: 3,823
ohio, usa
kevin roberts Offline OP

fefsa
kevin roberts  Offline OP

fefsa
Joined: Dec 2013
Posts: 3,823
ohio, usa
the old originals? they're all burnt up.

i bought dai ichi points and condensors from peter quick to install instead of the Boyer.

[Linked Image][Linked Image]

hope the system works better.

Last edited by kevin roberts; 02/14/18 12:39 am.

live every day.
die once.
Re: 441 [Re: kevin roberts] #725524
02/14/18 1:39 am
02/14/18 1:39 am
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 3,696
Sydney Australia
B
BSA_WM20 Offline
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Joined: May 2004
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Sydney Australia
Check the cam bush very carefully.
If there is any up & down play, that will be amplified over the distance between the bush and the points cam,
The act of the valves pushing against the cam and then releasing pressure on it can cause the points to open & close at funny times.
I have had this problem twice and it took a long time to work out what it was.
The dirty bodge was to open the points to .020" on the cam with a point on it anc close down to 0.008" on the cam with the flat on it.
Then adjust the points plat to get the correct timing.

And duble ditto on the fast wear nylon rubbing block.
They are most likely the only ones you can get now days.
Originals were bakalite and only rarely required adjustment for wear.
The nylon ones required weekly adjustments and I have seen some melt at the pivot.
To be fair that bike was overheating.
These are car points and designed to be in a nice cool distributor not stuck in the crankcase of a stinking hot air cooled engine.

And do yourself a big favour, put a second pair of points, adjusted so they are not touching the cam in the other loacting place on the backing plate.
That way you will have a spare set.

Now to be fair, we ride long distances down here oft in really hot weather but I have had more than one set of them wear excessively on the pivot due to excessive heat, so keep it lubed.

Mount the cap on one of the coil mounting bolts where it will get some cooling air.

Last edited by BSA_WM20; 02/14/18 1:41 am.

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Re: 441 [Re: kevin roberts] #725657
02/15/18 2:41 am
02/15/18 2:41 am
Joined: Dec 2013
Posts: 3,823
ohio, usa
kevin roberts Offline OP

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kevin roberts  Offline OP

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ohio, usa
interesting on the cam bush. that's obvious in hindsight, but it never occurred to me until you mentioned it. i'll do some wiggling and see how it looks.

re the contact breaker rubbing block, i have never seen any made in bakelite. the nylon or plastic ones are the only ones i have ever come across for british stuff, although the points for the magneto in my ARD are bakelite, i believe.

i haven't run points seriously in a lot of years, as soon as i could afford my first Boyer, in fact. that was back when bad condensors were eating my points, and new condensors cost as much as a month's rent for me. i run some now in an old A65, but they were the first ones i'd messed with in a lot of years. putting these in will be interesting.

might put them in tomorrow. i'm backing up on projects, but the shop is due to warm up a bit so we'll see where we are.


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Re: 441 [Re: kevin roberts] #725673
02/15/18 9:02 am
02/15/18 9:02 am
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 3,802
argyll. scotland, uk
gavin eisler Online content
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gavin eisler  Online Content
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argyll. scotland, uk
i think it was the 4CA breaker plate had the bakelite heel,my 6CA had the nylon as well, that felt pad needs a drop of oil to stop the heel wearing real fast.
used to travel with a spare cap in my pocket, you either had very cheap rent or the cap man was gouging you!


71 Devimead A65 750
56 Norbsa 68 Longstroke A65
Cagiva Raptor 650
MZ TS 250
The poster formerly known as Pod
Re: 441 [Re: gavin eisler] #725721
02/15/18 7:34 pm
02/15/18 7:34 pm
Joined: Dec 2013
Posts: 3,823
ohio, usa
kevin roberts Offline OP

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kevin roberts  Offline OP

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ohio, usa
Originally Posted by gavin eisler

used to travel with a spare cap in my pocket, you either had very cheap rent or the cap man was gouging you!


two Lucas capacitors were US$40, which was the cost of 40 loaves of bread, 80 packets of cigarettes, or 80 US gallons of gasoline.

at the time i shared a $160 house with three other students.

didn't know until i was told here on this forum how interchangeable capacitors were.


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Re: 441 [Re: NickL] #725722
02/15/18 7:35 pm
02/15/18 7:35 pm
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ohio, usa
kevin roberts Offline OP

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kevin roberts  Offline OP

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Originally Posted by NickL
Better off mounting the cap up by the coil.

Buy a 0.22uf 400v 105 deg c mkp polyprop cap and solder some leads on it, much better than this bike and car crap.

Typical

https://www.eBay.com.au/itm/CAP-SUP-Y2-PP-0-22UF-300VAC-RAD-R413N32204000M-Fnl/391973940170?hash=item5b4377abca:g:wbQAAOSwtGlZJIFZ

http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/2pcs-PHILIPS-BC-MKP376-0-22uF-0-22-F-0-22uF-630V-5-P-27-5mm-Capacitor/161234340950?hash=item258a50cc56:g:mm4AAMXQVT9TDHiu


looking . . .

i am exceptionally non-electronic. how do you decide which post to ground on one of these?


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Re: 441 [Re: kevin roberts] #725728
02/15/18 8:40 pm
02/15/18 8:40 pm
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 562
Ewing. NJ
E
edunham Offline
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Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 562
Ewing. NJ
Kevin,
I prefer points and magnetos to electronic ignitions for a number of reasons. But one of them is visceral. When the advance bangs open on a Lucas Advance Unit, it feels like a big hand just started pushing you faster. You don't get that with most electronic ignitions. They advance in a much more linear fashion. Probably just as fast or faster, but they don't feel that way.
To avoid the quick wear heel issue, I buy old points plates with the original points on them at swap meets and on eBay. They are often cheap and the reason they are being sold is because the owners want electronic ignition, not because they are worn. They usually clean up just fine. I also either replace the springs in the advance units or bend the tabs out so that the springs pull back properly. Finally, I make sure the little felt for the cam is in place. I don't know why everyone used to pull them off. A little 3 & 1 oil on the felt (this goes for mags too) and on the advance unit helps the points hold their settings for a long time.
I was not a 441 fan when I was young. Twins and triples were all I was interested in. Then a few years ago I stumbled onto a T25, which led to a 441, which led to a B50. I love 'em all now (all on points- in fact, out of my 14 bikes, all are on points except my Trident and my '83 Honda which came with electronic ignition.).

Ed from

Re: 441 [Re: kevin roberts] #725748
02/15/18 10:52 pm
02/15/18 10:52 pm
Joined: Dec 2013
Posts: 3,823
ohio, usa
kevin roberts Offline OP

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kevin roberts  Offline OP

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ohio, usa
i've kept all the mechanicals from my old morgo, humorously i could have used the 6CA plate from that T120 instead of buying a replacement one. i didn't realize that you could take a 6CA plate from a twin and just leave off one of the point sets. silly.

but i bought it from peter quick at bsa unit singles for US$11, so who's to complain? needed points anyway.

i messed with the AAU on my old morgo all the time. the cam was corroded from rust from the DPO, the little cam screws were all buggered up, the pins for the springs were worn so i had to wedge them out with pieces of beer can to hold a constant timing. i never had a gasket on the point cover so whenever it rained i had to loosen the cover and tip the bike to let the water run out before it would start.

once i stopped the springs from rattling mine had an on/off advance like you're describing, ed. i know a little more about them these days, so hopefully it will work a bit better for me.


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Re: 441 [Re: kevin roberts] #725750
02/15/18 10:59 pm
02/15/18 10:59 pm
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 3,802
argyll. scotland, uk
gavin eisler Online content
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gavin eisler  Online Content
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argyll. scotland, uk
Re grounding cap, theres two types of cap commonly used in electronics, electrolytics and normal ones, electrolytics are always marked for polarity, - one end + the other , get this wrong and they go pop, normal ones dont care, so if you get a cap without the polarity marks its a fair bet its not electrolytic and it will wire either way round, if it has the marks wire neg to points/ coil connection, and plus to chassis if its brit style positive ground/ earth. Up by the coil keeps them cool, caps dont like heat. BITD I bought car capacitors and fitted them up by the coils, they were about £1.50 each, you were being robbed for Lucas stuff, although if you had a 4 CA or Dizzy type you would struggle to get anything else to fit, the 6 CA doesnt care cos the cap isnt part of the structure. just part of the circuit.


71 Devimead A65 750
56 Norbsa 68 Longstroke A65
Cagiva Raptor 650
MZ TS 250
The poster formerly known as Pod
Re: 441 [Re: kevin roberts] #725756
02/15/18 11:32 pm
02/15/18 11:32 pm
Joined: Dec 2013
Posts: 3,823
ohio, usa
kevin roberts Offline OP

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kevin roberts  Offline OP

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ohio, usa
excellent. those things that nick linked to are cheap, and i can search on the specs to find similar things in america. looks like 22uf, lots of volts and heat resistance are the important parts.

years ago i rode my T120 across the american west with a buddy who had a 69 R60, with a magneto coil that was failing. somewhere in the oklahoma panhandle it finally died, and so we went into an auto parts place early in the morning and bought an ignition coil, tied it to the frame somewhere, and wired the magneto points to it. stuck another condensor on somewhere, too, i don;t remember where.

then we took off again, and the last i ever saw if him was as he disappeared into colorado headed for pueblo, while i took off across monument valley headed for phoenix.

nice thing about mechanicals is that you fix them mechanically, without digging into the epoxy to get intimate with the transistors.

of course, i dropped my own points as soon as i could afford EI.


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Re: 441 [Re: kevin roberts] #725789
02/16/18 10:49 am
02/16/18 10:49 am
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 3,802
argyll. scotland, uk
gavin eisler Online content
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gavin eisler  Online Content
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argyll. scotland, uk
"looks like 22uf,"

Import point, its 0.22 uFarads , not 22 , easy mistake to make , a 22 is 100 times too much, and its u ( micro ) , not m ( Milli) getting this wrong puts you out by 1,000 times.


71 Devimead A65 750
56 Norbsa 68 Longstroke A65
Cagiva Raptor 650
MZ TS 250
The poster formerly known as Pod
Re: 441 [Re: kevin roberts] #725818
02/16/18 5:20 pm
02/16/18 5:20 pm
Joined: Dec 2013
Posts: 3,823
ohio, usa
kevin roberts Offline OP

fefsa
kevin roberts  Offline OP

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ohio, usa
missed the decimal

we may have spring. thought i heard the peepers briefly day before yesterday

hyla crucifer they used to be, then tbey changed the genus to something i forget

Last edited by kevin roberts; 02/16/18 5:21 pm.

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Re: 441 [Re: kevin roberts] #725863
02/17/18 12:17 am
02/17/18 12:17 am
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 12,722
Central Virginia
Lannis Online content

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Lannis  Online Content

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Central Virginia
Originally Posted by kevin roberts
missed the decimal

we may have spring. thought i heard the peepers briefly day before yesterday

hyla crucifer they used to be, then tbey changed the genus to something i forget


I've been keeping track of "First Peepers" here at our place since 1994, because it can be a good predictor of "last front" and planting time.

Only once, in 2001, did peepers peep on February 15th. Latest date is March 10, in 2010. Sure enough, "last frost" in 2001 was 4/7, and was 5/15 in 2010 ....

Lannis


I stopped believing for a little while this morning. Journey is really going to be upset.
Re: 441 [Re: kevin roberts] #725908
02/17/18 2:10 pm
02/17/18 2:10 pm
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 6,931
Laredo (South) Texas, USA
GrandPaul Offline
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Laredo (South) Texas, USA
Those birds must watch channel 5 thru the neighbor's windows...


GrandPaul (does not use emoticons)
Author of the book "Old Bikes"
Too many bikes to list, mostly Triumph & Norton, some BSA & European
"The Iron in your blood should be Vintage"
Re: 441 [Re: kevin roberts] #725921
02/17/18 5:24 pm
02/17/18 5:24 pm
Joined: Dec 2013
Posts: 3,823
ohio, usa
kevin roberts Offline OP

fefsa
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ohio, usa
robin!

and a brown towhee.


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die once.
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