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68triton
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New Square four Project
#704545 08/10/17 7:09 pm
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This will be the beginning of a long thread about a '58 Square Four, I think.
Just landed on this island last week is this project.

[Linked Image]image1 by William Dunlap, on Flickr

[Linked Image]image1 (2) by William Dunlap, on Flickr

[Linked Image]frame 3 by William Dunlap, on Flickr

[Linked Image]frame2 by William Dunlap, on Flickr

[Linked Image]parts by William Dunlap, on Flickr

I have a friend who travels the world as a deck hand on a 100 ft. motor yatcht and makes decent money. He's also a craigslist and eBay hound. He flushed this project out while in Florida and called me on it.
I told him if he had documentation that proved that the engine had been professionally rebuilt, he should buy it.
He was excited to find out that I had worked on the only square four to ever turn up here on this island.
He got a good deal...
It's probably 90% complete or better. Just needs assembly! Yeah, we've heard that before.

Right now, he's of a mind to assemble it as a decent rider, not a show bike or garage queen. I did tell him that once it's running he will definitely have a hard time staying off it. smile

He's leaning toward the maroon color, with black cycle parts.

I don't push him in any direction. He knows what he likes.

I'm kind of looking forward to this project, at least more than others I've done recently. The end result is what drives you and from my earlier experiences with one of these, that's a huge reward.

We've got decent documentation and we know about Draganfly already.

However, I have a feeling that expertise found on this website will be more valuable.

Right now, I'm really missing my old friend Arlen Jefferies who knew these machines better that nearly anyone.

Cheers,
Bill


Last edited by HawaiianTiger; 08/10/17 7:11 pm.

Bikes
1974 Commando
1985 Honda Nighthawk 650
1957 Thunderbird/T110 "Black Tiger"
Antique Fans: Loads of Emersons (Two six wingers) plus gyros and orbiters.
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Re: New Square four Project
HawaiianTiger #704563 08/10/17 9:22 pm
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Originally Posted by HawaiianTiger
This will be the beginning of a long thread about a '58 Square Four,
I'd be looking forward to following your rebuild more if you were going to do the engine. I first saw an old square four in the local BSA dealer's showroom when I was 14 or 15 and have been interested in the engine ever since just because it was "different." That said, I can't think that I've ever actually wanted to own one (well, maybe -- but maybe not -- an early OHC version, but only because its engine is different2).

Re: New Square four Project
Magnetoman #704566 08/10/17 9:57 pm
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I think I could tackle the top end, but I'd be entering new territory with that complex bottom end.
It's more the lack of expertise way out here than anything else that I would need in order to do it.
I've got the curiosity. No problem there. I tore apart my Sportster motor when I was 22 and did the entire thing including the gearbox and timing gears successfully. HD manuals are excellent from way back. It allows even the most crude individuals to work on them as long as they can read.

What really sells you on these bikes is how they run and sound. It's a marvelous experience. No question it's a gentleman's ride and doesn't really inspire racing around, but what a lovely sound coming from it!
Not noise....music.

It appears that the motor was done in the UK. I'm hoping that's a good thing. I haven't seen the paperwork on it yet, so don't know who did the work. I'll be asking about their credentials when I do know.

Arlen Jefferies used to live in my neighborhood back in the 90's and I visited him at his home/museum/workshop as often as he would allow. He had a fleet of OHC Ariels as well as several 1000's and also a complete collection of pre 1950 Triumph twins including a couple of GP's.

You would have really gotten on well with him. He cast his own parts and machined them right at his home. Plus, he was humble and brilliant at the same time. A combination you don't often find together.
He would often compliment my work, but I think he was just being encouraging to keep the interest up in younger people like myself.(at the time)

Hopefully, we'll get started on it in the next week or so.

Cheers,
Bill


Last edited by HawaiianTiger; 08/10/17 10:02 pm.

Bikes
1974 Commando
1985 Honda Nighthawk 650
1957 Thunderbird/T110 "Black Tiger"
Antique Fans: Loads of Emersons (Two six wingers) plus gyros and orbiters.
Re: New Square four Project
HawaiianTiger #704569 08/10/17 10:32 pm
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If you can get your hands on the 1953 parts catalog, which I don't have but that also covers through '55, I'll scan the 15-page supplement for '56/'57, which I do have, and send it to you. Bacon lists minor changes made for '57 and says '58 continued unchanged.

____engine_____frame
'56___ML_____GM
'57___NML____GM
'58___CNML__CGM

Last edited by Magnetoman; 08/10/17 11:57 pm. Reason: added prefixes and comment about '58
Re: New Square four Project
HawaiianTiger #705161 08/15/17 10:02 pm
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OK, we're on the hunt for a parts book. In the meantime, I took the numbers off the frame, engine and gearbox.
Engine CGM 1522
Frame CNML 1529
Gearbox three numbers. 930
GR7M 55
B839

Thanks for any info.

Cheers,
Bill


Bikes
1974 Commando
1985 Honda Nighthawk 650
1957 Thunderbird/T110 "Black Tiger"
Antique Fans: Loads of Emersons (Two six wingers) plus gyros and orbiters.
Re: New Square four Project
HawaiianTiger #705164 08/15/17 10:30 pm
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Hi Bill,
May I make a couple of observations?
Frame and engine number prefixes match up with 58, http://www.arielnorthamerica.org/resources/engineframenumbers.pdf

The gearbox case has a 55 (M= December I think??) date stamp

The single sided front hub on the rolling frame is pre 56,
58 would have the full width alloy hub pictured

I rode one for a magazine feature a couple of years ago, Yes an interesting bike but I'm not sure one will be on my buy list when I win the Lotto !!

John

Re: New Square four Project
HawaiianTiger #705238 08/16/17 8:54 pm
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Interesting machine... looking forward to your progress. You have joined the Ariel club and forums I assume?

Re: New Square four Project
HawaiianTiger #705247 08/16/17 9:31 pm
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It's not my bike, so I'll leave that to the owner. My job will be to guide the project to a good conclusion. Right now, we're going with powder coating on frame and cycle parts, collecting parts and info.

We've already run into a snag. Seems the front fork legs are from some other bike. I thought the front brake looked familiar. Turns out it's a BSA item from the period. It's not much of a brake for a 1000cc four, so we might be sending off the shoes to Vintage Brake here soon.

So, a set of usable front fork legs from a late square four is on the hunt list.

Cheers,
Bill



Bikes
1974 Commando
1985 Honda Nighthawk 650
1957 Thunderbird/T110 "Black Tiger"
Antique Fans: Loads of Emersons (Two six wingers) plus gyros and orbiters.
Re: New Square four Project
HawaiianTiger #705255 08/16/17 11:17 pm
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Even after you have had the experts do their best with the front brake, it's still not much of a front brake!

Joining the Ariel Owners Club is highly recommended. Bruce Longman is the Sq 4 expert; his help / advice is invaluable. And then there is a very good spare parts service.

The Australian Ariel Register is also highly recommended.

Richard

Re: New Square four Project
Richard Kal #705262 08/17/17 12:07 am
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Darn! Now my '55 Ariel SQ4 is not the only one in Hawai`i. At least you're on Maui so I can still say mine is unique on the big island... I have a very small stash of parts and a little bit of knowledge gained mostly through doing things incorrectly. I bought my SQ4 from an old friend here - Greg Marciniec. You might know him - he used to be a grumpy mechanic as Kaiser before he retired.

I think I've figured out how to get the best ignition system using an electronic points replacement, but I have a long way to go.




Last edited by cas.vanderwoude; 08/17/17 12:09 am.
Re: New Square four Project
HawaiianTiger #705280 08/17/17 5:13 am
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Sounds fantastic Cas.

Man, that thing started way too easy!

I keep telling my friend he won't be able to stay off the thing once we get it running.

We finished tuning his Triumph street tracker today and his '69 is getting a new front tire, so now there won't be anything to do but get to work on the Ariel.

Cheers,
Bill


Bikes
1974 Commando
1985 Honda Nighthawk 650
1957 Thunderbird/T110 "Black Tiger"
Antique Fans: Loads of Emersons (Two six wingers) plus gyros and orbiters.
Re: New Square four Project
HawaiianTiger #705425 08/18/17 8:27 pm
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Give this a try:

http://manuals.classic-motorbikes.net/allmanuals/1_0b5d15f65c2f5e270444f8c6acbf56bf.pdf

If no joy, try this page first:

http://manuals.classic-motorbikes.net/


One of my favorite sites!!!!

All the best,

Skip Brolund


Magneto & Dynamo restorations & supplies

My Bikes
1948 Norton 500T Trials bike
1950 Norton Model 7
1952 Norton ES2
1957 Norton Model 77
1960 Norton Nomad 600cc Desert sled
1961 Norton ES2 (slimline)
1964 Norton Atlas Scrambler
1972 Bultaco Alpina
Re: New Square four Project
HawaiianTiger #705920 08/23/17 6:12 pm
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Ah yes - the extremely rare mag wheel version. VERY limited production of that particular variation...

Re: New Square four Project
cas.vanderwoude #706213 08/25/17 8:43 pm
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Originally Posted by cas.vanderwoude
Ah yes - the extremely rare mag wheel version. VERY limited production of that particular variation...

Yeah, you caught that? I think it was a moped wheel just to get it shipped easier.

We're currently awaiting the frame from the powder coaters. They want nearly 900$ to do it! I was appalled at the price. I never charged more that 250$ to do a frame. I should never have gotten rid of my big oven!

I might make another if the need arises. I can make an oven for far less money than this, and pay for it with the first frame I do and charge half of this rate to do it.

In the meantime, we've ordered all the bushings from Draganfly for the plunger parts and a local man will press them in and ream them to fit. It's just a little outside my area of expertise.

I'm powder coating the small bits in my home oven(in the garage) and the owner is parting with an Aprilla Mille in order to help finance the restoration of this bike and the Commando that's on the way.

We have the fork problem to solve right now. Looks like we have an earlier fork to me...

But the owner definitely wants the BSA front brake as it shines like a new penny. Maybe someone has a later fork and wants an earlier one? A trade could be in order here.

Cheers,
Bill


Bikes
1974 Commando
1985 Honda Nighthawk 650
1957 Thunderbird/T110 "Black Tiger"
Antique Fans: Loads of Emersons (Two six wingers) plus gyros and orbiters.
Re: New Square four Project
HawaiianTiger #707744 09/08/17 7:03 pm
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Progress report. Frame is finally back from the powder coaters. I smell a business opportunity here......
Owner is at least happy with it.
So, now, the hunt for parts is still on.
We still need the proper forks for the late bikes and have an early set for trade.
The rear brake drum is broken....don't know how that happened.
Are these available new?
Will likely be lacing up stainless rims with stainless spokes.
I'll probably have to wait on final truing for the entire suspension parts to be finished. Right now we're hung up because Draganfly only had two of the four large bushings for the plunger links.
Unless someone has offset specs for the wheels. Looks like the front is dead center?

Cheers,
Bill


Bikes
1974 Commando
1985 Honda Nighthawk 650
1957 Thunderbird/T110 "Black Tiger"
Antique Fans: Loads of Emersons (Two six wingers) plus gyros and orbiters.
Re: New Square four Project
HawaiianTiger #707930 09/10/17 2:55 pm
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If you keep working on square fours you'll become one of the "local characters of British motorcycling".

Re: New Square four Project
HawaiianTiger #707962 09/10/17 9:58 pm
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I guess I should hope for that. Seems like full retirement is out of reach....

Cheers,
Bill


Bikes
1974 Commando
1985 Honda Nighthawk 650
1957 Thunderbird/T110 "Black Tiger"
Antique Fans: Loads of Emersons (Two six wingers) plus gyros and orbiters.
Re: New Square four Project
old mule #708208 09/12/17 9:22 pm
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Too late - he already is!

Originally Posted by old mule
If you keep working on square fours you'll become one of the "local characters of British motorcycling".


Re: New Square four Project
cas.vanderwoude #709294 09/22/17 4:48 pm
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Biull - check this out

http://www.eBay.com/itm/172870983855?ul_noapp=true


Re: New Square four Project
HawaiianTiger #709323 09/22/17 8:35 pm
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Thanks, Cas,

Bear just scored one this week, but that looks like a deal to me. He's been known to buy duplicates of things he needs.....

One thing holding up the progress is that Draganfly only sent us two of the large bushings for the plunger suspension. We have a bearing shop here when I'm going to see if there is any possibility that we can source one.

I'm getting the sheet metal today to start on the paint. I'll be selecting a maroon from the paint shop. Unless someone has a paint code for the original color, I'll be trying to just get close by using photos off the internet.

Cheers,
Bill


Bikes
1974 Commando
1985 Honda Nighthawk 650
1957 Thunderbird/T110 "Black Tiger"
Antique Fans: Loads of Emersons (Two six wingers) plus gyros and orbiters.
Re: New Square four Project
HawaiianTiger #709558 09/24/17 9:50 pm
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I'm going to the paint shop tomorrow to order paint. If anyone has a match, ie. code or maker's paint name like Amaranth Red it could really help.

The color is a maroon or even an oxblood color.

Also, I'll be applying transfers where appropriate. There seems to be a lack of info regarding placement......

I can see where the min and max oil level transfers go, but the rest is a bit of a mystery.

Any info out there about transfers?

Also, instead of waiting for Draganfly to restock I found the plunger bushings at McMaster-Carr. Turns out they're a pretty standard size....If anyone wants the part number, let me know.

Cheers,
Bill

Last edited by HawaiianTiger; 09/24/17 9:52 pm.

Bikes
1974 Commando
1985 Honda Nighthawk 650
1957 Thunderbird/T110 "Black Tiger"
Antique Fans: Loads of Emersons (Two six wingers) plus gyros and orbiters.
Re: New Square four Project
HawaiianTiger #709585 09/25/17 12:44 am
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hi Bill.

Yes, I'd like the part numbers.

I believe the color was very close to 1940 Ford Mandarin Maroon. Below are the paint codes I tracked down. No guarantees...

Are you painting over the powdercoat?

1940 Ford Mandarin Maroon
Ford code
M1796

Ditzler PPG
50035,
IM2204
QDE1508

Dupont
93-6629M
225-34094M

Re: New Square four Project
cas.vanderwoude #709593 09/25/17 4:54 am
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Cas,
The part number is 6391k419 oil embedded sleeve bearing. Catalog page number 1175. 7/8" ID 1.00" OD
It's 1 1/2 inches long. The ones I got from Draganfly are 1 1/4. Don't know yet if I have to trim them but no biggie if I do.

I'm sure you can find the rest there, too.

I found an old Motorcycle Collector magazine in my collection with an article about a 58 MkII. I'm loving the color. Thanks for the tip. I'll ask about those at the paint shop tomorrow.

We're going with a black frame and cycle parts. All the sheet metal will be maroon. Not exactly to original specs, but that's what Bear wants so that's the way it will be.

Cheers,

Bill



Bikes
1974 Commando
1985 Honda Nighthawk 650
1957 Thunderbird/T110 "Black Tiger"
Antique Fans: Loads of Emersons (Two six wingers) plus gyros and orbiters.
Re: New Square four Project
HawaiianTiger #709672 09/25/17 10:26 pm
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this might help too.

[Linked Image]

I'd also be VERY interested in some kind of template to help me work out how/where to position the pinstripes around the chrome bits...

Re: New Square four Project
HawaiianTiger #709689 09/26/17 2:52 am
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Cas,
Thanks for taking the time to help out with the paint.
Picked up the paint today. The paint shop couldn't identify the paint codes so I went by eye and their color chip catalog. I found a color that is really attractive. We'll have to see if it is a close match to the original.
In the meantime I'm doing some powder coating and I'm working on the fork legs today. Someone went to town on one leg with vise grips. Ugh....I filled it with silver solder.

Here's the frame back from the powder coaters.

[Linked Image]001 by William Dunlap, on Flickr

And the fork leg I repaired.

[Linked Image]003 by William Dunlap, on Flickr
Sorry about the picture quality. I'll start using my new camera from now on....

Cheers,
Bill



Bikes
1974 Commando
1985 Honda Nighthawk 650
1957 Thunderbird/T110 "Black Tiger"
Antique Fans: Loads of Emersons (Two six wingers) plus gyros and orbiters.
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