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Re: Need clutch plates in US [Re: M20] #699754
06/27/17 4:44 am
06/27/17 4:44 am
Joined: Jul 2016
Posts: 242
Australia
Joolstacho Offline
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Posts: 242
Australia
"seems a little wanked"
Well that's a good 'un ! (Something lost in translation I think, hee hee).
There should be a large rubber O-ring that fits over the crankcase boss behind the engine sprocket. May be of dubious value with any but a new, dead straight inner PCC.
There should be a thick cork gasket between the gearbox and the inner PCC inner face. There are 4 shouldered screws that hold the PCC to the box, but they are supposed to just impart enough pressure to stop oil leakage, but allow just enough 'slip' so that the box can move back and forwards for adjusting the primary chain tension. There is a felt seal outside of the clutch, there is a spacer between the PCC halves that is important not to miss.
This system is virtually impossible to keep leak-free. Crankcase pressure is free to escape into the PCC via the mainshaft bearing. Oil can seep past the sleevegear bushing -other places vulnerable too.
Some people attain something less than a gush, but it takes plenty of work to achieve. For example there is a 'proper' oil seal that replaces the cork I think. Do try to get the inner PCC as flat as possible, that'll help a lot. But don't beat the **it out of it and stretch the metal).

After some years of trying, I ended up fabricating a nice alloy sheet sump guard which, with some felt applied, fixed most of the PCC oil leaks. (A bit like turning the car radio volume up to instantly fix noisy tappets!)


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Re: Need clutch plates in US [Re: Joolstacho] #699789
06/27/17 11:41 am
06/27/17 11:41 am
Joined: Aug 2016
Posts: 40
Tennessee
M
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Tennessee
That explains a lot and is kind of what we were thinking, I think the washers we discussed earlier behind the sprocket were an attempt to keep the primary chain from rubbing the inner PPC. The PPC looks to be a little proud on that end and you can see where the primary chain has hit a few times. On another note, I think you were dead on about the tool box sticking out to far. It appears to be mounted incorrectly for some reason, looks to be an easy change. Great information, I will keep plugging along.
Thanks

Re: Need clutch plates in US [Re: M20] #699821
06/27/17 4:49 pm
06/27/17 4:49 pm
Joined: Mar 2012
Posts: 197
Draper, Utah
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Fullminator Offline
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Posts: 197
Draper, Utah
M20, my experience with Groves matches yours. I have ordered much from them, and they have an A+ rating from me in the shipping department.
I also agree with Joolstacho, the primary chaincase is a real challenge to get leak free. Making a moveable gearbox to facilitate primary chain adjustment and making it leak free are two diametrically opposed intentions.
I have a new primary chaincase, (from Groves) so it is relatively straight. I also installed the large O-ring at the crankshaft end, behind the inner case half on the crankcase boss. I also used a good amount of RTV silicone sealant here as this opening is not subject to component movements. Groves also sells an upgrade nitrile rubber seal for use at the crankshaft end, on the outer primary chaincase half. I haven't installed this yet as I am still struggling to get the &%$#* clutch to go together.
Viva Velocette!
Fullminator.

Re: Need clutch plates in US [Re: Fullminator] #699849
06/27/17 8:48 pm
06/27/17 8:48 pm
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 302
Scotland
Bry Offline

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Posts: 302
Scotland
As an alternative to trying to seal the PCC, I have had good experience running the primary dry using an IWIS endless 'o' ring chain in my Venom. I have been using this set up for the last 5 years (~8,000 miles) without problem and am planning a similar conversion on my newly acquired Iron MSS over the winter. During this period the primary chain has only needed minor adjustment twice. I have been keeping an eye on the shock absorber spring drive cam assembly but it seems to get enough lubrication from the oil mist created from the crankshaft breather.


1946 Velocette MSS
1955 Triton
1959 Velocette Venom
1966 Triumph T120
Re: Need clutch plates in US [Re: M20] #699867
06/28/17 12:09 am
06/28/17 12:09 am
Joined: Jul 2016
Posts: 242
Australia
Joolstacho Offline
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Joolstacho  Offline
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Australia
That's a good solution Bry, obviously it works well for you. And you've had no problems running the clutch dry? No issues with the clutch thrust bearing? -Have you done the oil groove mod to the 'banjo'?
It's been said in the past that running the clutch dry results in too much heat build up, (though heat might not be such an issue up there Bry :-), plus no lubrication to the big chainwheel bearing, less to the thrust bearing. Anyway I'll be looking at this option for my KSS/Viper project I think.

Fullminator, are you having problems starting the big tubular nut on the sleeve gear thread? (You probably know all this anyway, but at the risk of teaching granny how to suck eggs)... The right tool makes a difference - (easy to make -just a short length of scaffold tube with a 4 short pegs brazed in and a simple tommy bar). And how many springs in the spring holder, 16 or 20. And are they the right length? Got the two shim washers on between the springs and tubular nut to stop the springs bending and inhibiting?

Re: Need clutch plates in US [Re: Joolstacho] #699899
06/28/17 8:17 am
06/28/17 8:17 am
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 302
Scotland
Bry Offline

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Bry  Offline

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Posts: 302
Scotland
I've had no problems with running the clutch dry Jools, ambient temperature may be a factor that will have a greater effect where you are though. I am using the Club spares plates and roller thrust bearing, packed with grease on assembly, imo this is a very worthwhile modification.

The oil groove mod to the banjo you are referring too, I assume is grinding a small groove into the thrust cup? If so, I did consider this when I built my Venom but decided against it as I could not see any major benefit and a risk to weaken what is already quite a fragile looking component, I just applied a light coating of grease to the cup on assembly.

As you will know, "dry running" a Velo primary is a relative term, there is still quite a bit of oil mist that enters via the crankshaft breather hole; this, I believe is sufficient to lubricate the large chain wheel bearing, which is lightly loaded anyway. I actually still drain out excess oil from the PCC every 800 miles or so, and this is with the later breather arrangement modification from that back of the timing case area.

Fullminator, +1 on what Jools says about using the right tool to fit the nut onto the sleeve gear, this will save you a lot of time and frustration. If this is indeed the issue you are experiencing in assembling your clutch, then polishing the ends of the springs on an oil stone (especially if the springs are new) and lubricating the washer will prevent them from catching and bending over as you get the nut started on the thread.


1946 Velocette MSS
1955 Triton
1959 Velocette Venom
1966 Triumph T120
Re: Need clutch plates in US [Re: Bry] #699940
06/28/17 6:11 pm
06/28/17 6:11 pm
Joined: Mar 2012
Posts: 197
Draper, Utah
F
Fullminator Offline
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Joined: Mar 2012
Posts: 197
Draper, Utah
Bry/Joolstacho, my clutch experience is quite a story. I have the following parts, all new from Groves: brass caged roller bearing, plain square roller bearing thrust ring, bonded clutch lining plates, plain flat plates, chainwheel, chainwheel bearing, (16) clutch springs, (2) shims on the sleeve gear nut, & sleeve gear nut. I reused the existing spherical thrust ring, frying pan thrust cup, & (3) thrust pins.
The book says the springs should be 1-1/8", but the new ones from Groves are nearly 1-1/4". This may be the problem. I polished the spring ends
I have the sleeve gear nut installation tool, but even then I have had a major problem getting the nut started. I finally made a 3/4" X 2" flat steel plate, about 1/8" thick, with a hole in the middle to fit over the clutch shaft that I could use the clutch nut to compress the springs as I started the nut on the sleeve gear. It worked, the clutch went together and I tightened up the sleeve gear nut as far as it would go, but now it seems to me the clutch springs are coil bound. After hooking up the clutch cable and pulling the lever, the whole clutch pack moves on the pivot, and it pulls hard. there is no separation of the plates at all. I suspect the springs are too long, but 1-1/8" to 1-1/4" difference isn't that much. How close to coil bound are the clutch springs in normal operation anyway? Holding the lever of the clutch in, are the springs very near coil bound?
Thanks.
Fullminator

Re: Need clutch plates in US [Re: M20] #699968
06/29/17 12:25 am
06/29/17 12:25 am
Joined: Jul 2016
Posts: 242
Australia
Joolstacho Offline
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Posts: 242
Australia
Those springs are too long. There's not much leeway at all, length should be 1 1/8", and coilbound at 3/4". (Surprised Groves would have sent incorrect lengths).
What's the overall thickness of your clutch pack assembled loosely off the bike? One of the problems with these clutches is that there are quite a few parts from different models and years which are slightly different but will interchange, but the clutch needs all the correct parts to function properly.

Re: Need clutch plates in US [Re: M20] #700042
06/29/17 5:28 pm
06/29/17 5:28 pm
Joined: Mar 2012
Posts: 197
Draper, Utah
F
Fullminator Offline
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Joined: Mar 2012
Posts: 197
Draper, Utah
My clutch pack measures 1" thick, which I understand to be correct. I agree that the springs are too long, but I will check to see if they measure 3/4" at full bind.
Thanks.
Fullminator.

Re: Need clutch plates in US [Re: Fullminator] #700132
06/30/17 7:58 am
06/30/17 7:58 am
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 302
Scotland
Bry Offline

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Bry  Offline

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Posts: 302
Scotland
Obviously something is not right with the assembly, hopefully the fix will be as simple as replacing the springs.

Was this a complete and working clutch before you fitted the new replacement parts?

There were some subtle changes to some of the clutch components over the years, and I believe it is possible to interchange components that can result in the situation you are describing.

If you have not seen this already, here is link to an article with links therein to very useful reference tables of clutch components and combinations.

http://v-tec.velocette.info/clutch.html


1946 Velocette MSS
1955 Triton
1959 Velocette Venom
1966 Triumph T120
Re: Need clutch plates in US [Re: M20] #700134
06/30/17 8:31 am
06/30/17 8:31 am
Joined: Jul 2016
Posts: 242
Australia
Joolstacho Offline
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Posts: 242
Australia
Now, to clarify, we're talking a postwar 9 plate clutch I assume? (Note, the plate count includes all elements in the clutch, including backplate, chainwheel and outer pressure plate). Postwar MSS should be 9 plate unless some PO has mixed components. Clutch pack total thickness for a 9 plate clutch is 15/16". Your pack at 1" thick is 1/16" too thick, but may just need bedding in.
(The 7 Plate assembly would be 7/8" thick) I guess we could assume a clutch with all new components might be slightly thicker because the inserted plates haven't bedded in yet).
That info on Bry's link is excellent, (thx Bry), the trouble is that it doesn't tell you what YOUR bike should have! Part numbers are all very well but how do you relate them to YOUR bike?

I have a list of the clutch parts AND DIMENSIONS based on bike/year. Let me know if you need a copy, I can scan and send it.

Re: Need clutch plates in US [Re: Joolstacho] #700136
06/30/17 8:46 am
06/30/17 8:46 am
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 302
Scotland
Bry Offline

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Bry  Offline

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Posts: 302
Scotland
Jools, there are links to 2 tables in the article the "main table" relates to year/model designation with components, the "...elements table" is a breakout of individual parts.

Your dimensioned list would be very useful, can you post it as a scanned image?

Bry


1946 Velocette MSS
1955 Triton
1959 Velocette Venom
1966 Triumph T120
Re: Need clutch plates in US [Re: M20] #700143
06/30/17 10:40 am
06/30/17 10:40 am
Joined: Jul 2016
Posts: 242
Australia
Joolstacho Offline
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Joolstacho  Offline
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Joined: Jul 2016
Posts: 242
Australia
Now. I just have to give credit where credit is due. This chart is nothing to do with me, but comes courtesy of Norm Trigg, a stalwart of the Australian Velo Club. A bloody wonderful ol' feller is Norm. He's a Velocette guru with a depth of knowledge of Velos and engineering in general that seems endless. There is a publication called 'Norm's Technicalities' that's a mine of useful information about Velos, compiled by Norm over many years, which was published by the Aussie Velo Club. I may see if/how it's possible for international enthusiasts can get a copy.
This is the clutch chart:

[Linked Image]

May be of some help.
Norm's weapon of choice is his superb 580cc longstroke Venom sidecar outfit, with alternator and electric start conversions, all engineered by Norm.

Re: Need clutch plates in US [Re: Joolstacho] #700204
06/30/17 5:37 pm
06/30/17 5:37 pm
Joined: Mar 2012
Posts: 197
Draper, Utah
F
Fullminator Offline
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Fullminator  Offline
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F

Joined: Mar 2012
Posts: 197
Draper, Utah
Jools/Bry, yes my clutch is a 9 plate, 1962 Venom. Thanks much for your posts and the clutch items detail tables. I see the two differ on the clutch spring size, not that it is that big of deal. One says 1-1/8" and the other 1-5/32"
This was a working clutch before being dismantled. The new springs I got from Groves are very obviously too long at almost 1-1/4", the problem is where to source the correct length ones?
I suppose I could cut these off, but then I wouldn't have a nice finished end.
Fullminator

Re: Need clutch plates in US [Re: Fullminator] #700215
06/30/17 6:43 pm
06/30/17 6:43 pm
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 302
Scotland
Bry Offline

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Bry  Offline

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Joined: May 2006
Posts: 302
Scotland
Fullminator, if you are a member of the Velocette Owners Club, use the spares scheme for your clutch springs (...and possibly a set of fibre plates). If you are not, it's worth joining the club just for access to the spares scheme although there are other benefits including the excellent monthly Fishtail magazine; in fact, members received a free copy of Norm's Technicalities book a few years back that Jools has taken the time to post the clutch information from above.

The club spares scheme is run by volunteer Velocette enthusiasts and they strictly control the quality of parts supplied.

http://www.velocespares.co.uk/vsl-sales.html

If you have the old parts availble I would try reassembling with the original fibre plates and springs, as I suspect that these are the replacement parts that are causing you the problem.

Also - for starting the nut on the sleeve gear try selecting fourth gear, as this can help to stop the sleeve gear from sliding back.

Bry


1946 Velocette MSS
1955 Triton
1959 Velocette Venom
1966 Triumph T120
Re: Need clutch plates in US [Re: M20] #700736
07/04/17 4:48 pm
07/04/17 4:48 pm
Joined: Aug 2016
Posts: 40
Tennessee
M
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Posts: 40
Tennessee
My bottom rocker exhaust arm MAS118 is worn to the point that the compression release will not engage the rocker arm. Grove is out and does not know when one will be available. Does anyone have another source or a used one for sale? I may be able to weld this one up but that may be a crap shoot.

Re: Need clutch plates in US [Re: M20] #700751
07/04/17 7:35 pm
07/04/17 7:35 pm
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 302
Scotland
Bry Offline

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Posts: 302
Scotland
Hi, if it was mine I'd try welding first (tig with a heat sink!), it shouldn't need much to rebuild. For a used replacement, give Nick Payton in London a call, great bloke to deal with and he has a huge stock of used and NOS parts.

http://www.totalbikebits.com/product_locator/dealerdetails.php?id=234


1946 Velocette MSS
1955 Triton
1959 Velocette Venom
1966 Triumph T120
Re: Need clutch plates in US [Re: M20] #700898
07/06/17 1:09 am
07/06/17 1:09 am
Joined: Aug 2016
Posts: 40
Tennessee
M
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Tennessee
Thanks Bry, going to try and weld it up first as suggested.

Re: Need clutch plates in US [Re: M20] #700911
07/06/17 8:16 am
07/06/17 8:16 am
Joined: Jul 2016
Posts: 242
Australia
Joolstacho Offline
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Posts: 242
Australia
Just wondering if you could weld a little extra 'nib' on the lifter itself rather than welding the rocker arm. ?
Yes I know that it needs to be removed from the case so needs to be circular, but it could work - ah, maybe not.

Re: Need clutch plates in US [Re: M20] #723312
01/26/18 1:29 pm
01/26/18 1:29 pm
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 629
Ontario , Canada
R
RGSROB Offline
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Posts: 629
Ontario , Canada
the shims you are referring to are fitted between the spring retain nut and the outer top of the 16 springs.The idea is to create some slippage so that springs are not pulled over as the nut is tightened. Does not work well but is better than none.

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