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Feb 13th, 2017
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KSS donk into swing arm frame project #689781
03/28/17 11:48 pm
03/28/17 11:48 pm
Joined: Jul 2016
Posts: 242
Australia
Joolstacho Offline OP
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Joolstacho  Offline OP
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Joined: Jul 2016
Posts: 242
Australia
Over many years I gathered most of the parts to build a KSS/RS.
The engine is a mk2 KSS, and has been polished extensively inside -crank and rod. All very sparkly!
The piston look rather lumpy for a KSS, (it's standard size, new) I haven't assembled the top yet but when I do I'll measure compression ratio. (Could it be a KTT piston?)
The barrel is Alfin with standard unused bore. Much bigger finning than a KSS.

Note the frame / engine plates. The lower mount hole doesn't align with the frame lugs, so one or other will have to be moved.
I'll need to make up dummy front engine mount plates (I have a VM pattern) to see which is the best way to go.
Gearbox is late KSS / MSS, Rear plates I'm not sure what model they're off, could be MAF.
Those frame lugs are pinned and brazed, I think they might be difficult to shift... how difficult I don't know.
Has anyone done this? I might have to plough through my 260 Fishtails to do some homework!
-Jools

[Linked Image]
[Linked Image]

Just in case people might not know the background to this KSS/RS project.
The much loved OHC KSS engine was never fitted into the swing-arm frame by the factory. It was too expensive to produce, having vertical shaft bevel-drive OHC, so production of the KSS OHC engine finished in 1948, the final version of the KSS was in the rigid rear, with Dowty (air) forks.
The best bike Velocette never made! Perhaps Ivan Rhodes' was the first one I saw, in 'Always in the picture'
So it has been a project popular with the Velo 'cognoscenti' I think people see it as a genuine Velocette, just one that the factory didn't actually do.

Last edited by Joolstacho; 04/15/17 1:18 am. Reason: fact-fix!
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Re: KSS donk into swing arm frame project [Re: Joolstacho] #689782
03/29/17 12:22 am
03/29/17 12:22 am
Joined: Aug 2014
Posts: 1,850
OZ
Triless Offline
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Triless  Offline
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Joined: Aug 2014
Posts: 1,850
OZ
Really interesting stuff. Now, this will pique interest in the Velo forum for sure, I reckon ! Good one, J.

Re: KSS donk into swing arm frame project [Re: Joolstacho] #693395
04/29/17 11:37 am
04/29/17 11:37 am
Joined: Apr 2017
Posts: 4
Australia
L
Lost in Garage Offline
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Lost in Garage  Offline
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L

Joined: Apr 2017
Posts: 4
Australia
Hi Joolstacho, Writing with much trepidation as I have virtually no understanding of motorbike technicals, let alone Velos (Joolstacho rightly rolls his eyes!) I am however a lifelong Velo enthusiast who recently decided that saving for retirement is simply over-rated and went out and bought me a Velo …… KSS MkII engine in a swinging arm frame (unsure of actual frame or gearbox model). And it’s LAMS approved! ;-)

Either way it’s a complete running bike, and has been since long before I got it, so it may able to help you!

Firstly I can see no sign of any mods to frame lugs - they look pristine. I had photos but apparently I need them on a server to attach them. If I can pm you they're yours.
Looking closely I’ve noted both front engine mounts and rear engine/gearbox mounts appear of same age and both look to be different (finish-wise) to the rest of the bike… as if both are later additions/mods made as a pair.
Another photo showed the vertical shaft sitting at about 4 degrees forward of vertical … apparently this forward lean on the engine is common to all OHC engines in swinging arm frames.

I hope this has somehow helped! And if I say something above that’s wrong, please correct.

The learning curve is very, very steep.

Re: KSS donk into swing arm frame project [Re: Joolstacho] #693435
04/29/17 11:04 pm
04/29/17 11:04 pm
Joined: Jul 2016
Posts: 242
Australia
Joolstacho Offline OP
BritBike Forum member
Joolstacho  Offline OP
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Joined: Jul 2016
Posts: 242
Australia
That's very helpful mate, I'm still dealing with engine/gearbox plates at the moment. My idea now is to locate everything from the lower frame lug mount and lower rear crankcase hole, and adapt the plates to suit.
Q: Do your rear plates completely encircle the gearbox or are they like the later VM VR type which are a 'C' shape, and are open at the rear?
Is your gearbox the earlier type, or later type? (Don't be so modest, we all have something to contribute!
Cheers.

Re: KSS donk into swing arm frame project [Re: Joolstacho] #693468
04/30/17 9:02 am
04/30/17 9:02 am
Joined: Apr 2017
Posts: 4
Australia
L
Lost in Garage Offline
BritBike Forum member
Lost in Garage  Offline
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L

Joined: Apr 2017
Posts: 4
Australia
My rear plates encircle the whole gearbox, they look similar to those in your pics. Gearbox is embossed KR16 which i understand is either KSS or MSS. Cheers!

Re: KSS donk into swing arm frame project [Re: Joolstacho] #694492
05/09/17 12:46 am
05/09/17 12:46 am
Joined: Jul 2016
Posts: 242
Australia
Joolstacho Offline OP
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Joolstacho  Offline OP
BritBike Forum member

Joined: Jul 2016
Posts: 242
Australia
After a false start with a custom-made set of plates, and a bit of agonising I've resolved the mountings as follows.

I reverted to the plates shown, and I 'anchored' everything from the lower frame mount lug using that as the starting-point. This means that no cutting/welding/moving of that frame lug needed. Good.
The gearbox plates align with the crankcases and the frame lug without alteration. I've made new front engine mounts to fit. Easy. Note the gearbox plates, see circled bolt-holes, the top rear -a new hole drilled, up and back from original hole. Fine.

The lower hole comes too close to the rear edge of the plate, so I've left the hole small for now, and I'll weld on a strip of 1/4" steel to this edge and then drill the bolt hole to size.
I've checked with barrel and head on and it all fits under the frame top tube with about 1/2" to spare. So it should work.

[Linked Image]

Re: KSS donk into swing arm frame project [Re: Joolstacho] #700999
07/07/17 12:53 am
07/07/17 12:53 am
Joined: Jul 2016
Posts: 242
Australia
Joolstacho Offline OP
BritBike Forum member
Joolstacho  Offline OP
BritBike Forum member

Joined: Jul 2016
Posts: 242
Australia
Has anyone seen an RS frame that has a steering head lug like this?
Note that it has no steering stop protruberence coming down (where also the steering damper is anchored).
Mine just has a hole drilled in the little web as can be seen. It's a '53-'54 MAC frame - has no sidecar 'ring' lug on the downtube.

[Linked Image]

Re: KSS donk into swing arm frame project [Re: Joolstacho] #717915
12/06/17 2:26 pm
12/06/17 2:26 pm
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 629
Ontario , Canada
R
RGSROB Offline
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R

Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 629
Ontario , Canada
Hi Jools, moving the footrest lugs is definitely the way to go. They are pinned and brazed but with heat and perseverance they will move.
We found they had to be moved to be able to install a generator in the normal position

Re: KSS donk into swing arm frame project [Re: Joolstacho] #717969
12/06/17 10:25 pm
12/06/17 10:25 pm
Joined: Jul 2016
Posts: 242
Australia
Joolstacho Offline OP
BritBike Forum member
Joolstacho  Offline OP
BritBike Forum member

Joined: Jul 2016
Posts: 242
Australia
The consensus of opinion around here was that the heating (and bashing!) involved in moving the lugs could compromise the strength of the frame tubing.
So I went the other route as per the above pic, involving making new front mounts and slightly altering the rear plates rear mount holes.
It all fits fine and the dynamo will just squeeze in there.

Re: KSS donk into swing arm frame project [Re: Joolstacho] #758722
12/09/18 11:49 pm
12/09/18 11:49 pm
Joined: Jul 2016
Posts: 242
Australia
Joolstacho Offline OP
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Joolstacho  Offline OP
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Joined: Jul 2016
Posts: 242
Australia
Just a brief update on this project. (No need to rush things eh?!)
I can confirm that my method of engine mounting - minor adaptation of rear engine plates, cut new front plates, and no moving of the lower frame lugs, works a treat*.
The motor is vertical in the frame. It sits down between the frame lower tubes nicely - bottom of the cases level with the bottom of the tubes, so there's good clearance under the top tube Just a little easing with a file facilitated this.
The dynamo fits fine. A bonus is that the standard KSS primary cases fit perfectly (THX Uncle Norm).
*There may be slight differences between variations of frames eg MAC VR VM etc, and Mk1 & Mk2 KSS motors, but my pairing MK2 KSS motor in a Swing-arm MAC frame works a treat.

I have been battling a bit with the vertical cam drive shaft arrangement. My barrel is KTT Alfin -which is a little shorter than KSS, stroke is standard, but the con-rod is shorter. It may be KTT but I haven't confirmed this yet.
Compression in this configuration was over 11:1, - perhaps okay for avgas or alcohol but no good with the crap we run on nowadays. So I made a cylinder packer which has brought the ratio to a more sane 8.5:1
Anyway all this means that the standard vertical shaft needs shortening by approx 7mm, a new Oldham slot cut, and the Oldham couplings fitted (precisely). It's all very hard steel, need to get a Diamond file.

Rolling chassis is all done, almost everything is mounted. Uncle Norm came up the other day and left the SEXIEST zorst I've ever seen, I think it might be manx Norton.
I couldn't resist it, -(he really knows how to make a designer go weak at the knees). Mind you he walked away with a set of Webbs. However I'll need to fit the boy-racer kickstart blanking plate I (luckily) have because the pipe won't fit with the kickstarter arrangement.
I was half considering this anyway, because the Velocette low kickstart ratio is not a lot better than bump-starting. (Next project- a roller starter!)

I'll post some new pics before too long.

PS I have accurate drawings of my engine plates which will be available once I have scans of them done (and stitched up).

Re: KSS donk into swing arm frame project [Re: Joolstacho] #758739
12/10/18 1:51 am
12/10/18 1:51 am
Joined: May 2013
Posts: 852
Overland Missouri
O
old mule Online content
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old mule  Online Content
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Joined: May 2013
Posts: 852
Overland Missouri
Thanks for posting, I do enjoy a Velo tale.


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