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Squecking/ whistling noise from behind points. #665048 08/24/16 8:34 am
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redrooster Offline OP
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Hi All,
The bike is a 1970 t120 that I have had for a few months now. The story is the previous owner who was the 2nd owner had it for 28 years but had not used it for 27 of those, just polished and looked at it. Due to a change in circumstances he had to sell it but it wouldn't start. He had Ace Classics in London work on it, they changed all the cables, oils and fitted new carbs,battery and plugs and got it starting. The previous owner stopped them from working on it at this point as the bill was mounting up.
When I went to pick it up it would start after a while but would not throttle and stalled. Air screw was turned fully in to start, slide needle was on bottom notch and plugs were 2 grades too hot.
I have fitted changed the 12 volt coils to 6 volt to help the Boyer ignition, checked over all the wiring and connections and made sure all earths are good. Cleaned out oil and petrol tanks, fitted external filter, set timing, set valve clearences, checked compression with leak down and compression test which is great and changed plugs. When put back together bike started first kick and when on road pulled really well but things were going too easy.

The problem
The bike soon developed an intermitant whistling/ squeaking noise which seemed to be coming from behind the position of the points area.
The oil back to the tank is good but the oil in the feed to the rocker only reaches to an inch below the top.
The external oil filter is before the oil tank and restrictor
When tidying up ignition I noticed there was a small amount of oil lying at the bottom of the points cover, There now seems to be more.
Could the external filter be stopping the oil from reaching the rocker box due to decreasing the pressure ?
Could the oil behind the points cover be a blown seal that is reducing the oil pressure and causing the oil not to reach the rockers.? if so is this an easy fix.

This is only my fourth britbike so I only know a little, most of which I have learnt from here
Would be very grateful if anyone can give me advice on this and where to start.
Thanks for your help



Last edited by redrooster; 08/24/16 9:31 am.
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Re: Squecking/ whistling noise from behind points. [Re: redrooster] #665052 08/24/16 8:47 am
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[Linked Image]

Re: Squecking/ whistling noise from behind points. [Re: redrooster] #665053 08/24/16 9:11 am
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Dry oil seal?

Re: Squecking/ whistling noise from behind points. [Re: redrooster] #665059 08/24/16 10:39 am
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GrandPaul Offline
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Points heels squealing against the AAU cam? Or the AAU itself is dry on it's shaft.


OOPS! Re-read the end, about oil in the points chest. Seal is shot.

Thankfully, Triumph AAU has a keyway, so easy to re-align.

Last edited by GrandPaul; 08/24/16 10:40 am.

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Re: Squecking/ whistling noise from behind points. [Re: GrandPaul] #665061 08/24/16 11:18 am
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Stuart Online Content
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Hi Paul,

Originally Posted by GrandPaul
OOPS! Re-read the end, about oil in the points chest. Seal is shot.
Thankfully, Triumph AAU has a keyway, so easy to re-align.

Mmmm ... unfortunately, you missed:-

Originally Posted by redrooster
changed the 12 volt coils to 6 volt to help the boyer ignition

Regards, wink

Re: Squecking/ whistling noise from behind points. [Re: redrooster] #665064 08/24/16 11:47 am
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Stuart Online Content
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Hi,

Originally Posted by redrooster
Could the oil behind the points cover be a blown seal that is reducing the oil pressure and causing the oil not to reach the rockers.?

No.

The seal in the back of the 'points' compartment simply stops oil in the timing chest entering the points compartment. It doesn't hold back any pressure.

Otoh, oil supply to the rockers is taken from the return between sump and tank. That is being pumped by the scavenge side of the oil pump. Given that always has a greater capacity than the feed side of the oil pump is the reason it sometimes pumps air, which is visible through the oil tank filler as intermittent 'spurts' of oil into the tank. So the 'pressure' to the head isn't that great at the best of times. frown

Originally Posted by redrooster
The oil back to the tank is good but the oil in the feed to the rocker only reaches to an inch below the top.

"the top" of what? confused

Originally Posted by redrooster
Could the external filter be stopping the oil from reaching the rocker box

Disconnect the external filter and connect the engine return pipe directly to the tank. If oil starts to reach the rocker box, the external filter is stopping the oil from reaching it; if oil still doesn't reach the rocker box, there's another problem ...

If oil isn't reaching the rockers, my guess is the squeak could a rocker, cam follower or the timing-side cam bearing.

If you want to, you might be able to narrow it down by using a long screwdriver as a stethoscope - handle in an ear, place other end on various parts of the engine, squeak will be louder the closer you are to the source. :bigt Rocker is obviously in rocker box, cam follower will likely be either block under bottom of prt or centre of crankcases just under tappet block, cam bearing will likely be top of crankcase just behind timing chest "points compartment". smile

Hth.

Regards,

Re: Squecking/ whistling noise from behind points. [Re: Stuart] #665091 08/24/16 2:54 pm
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Hi all, thanks for replies.
Stuart 'top of what' is top of rocker feed pipe, oil rises to point on photo just about level with fuel tap as photo but rises no further.[Linked Image]

Re: Squecking/ whistling noise from behind points. [Re: redrooster] #665092 08/24/16 3:13 pm
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Ok, I need to replace the seal behind the timing chest, but this does not effect oil pressure ?

And I need to remove filter and put oil system back to how it was and see results.

After I heard squeaking/whistling noise I turned off engine and squirted 16 syringes of oil in the rockerbox in all directions, through the rocker oil feed holes and through the openings where I had removed the 4 covers and also squirted oil down the timeing hole behind the barrels, noise still remained the same.
Will oiling like this work or will oil not get to where it needs to get?

I am reluctant to start engine again to listen to noise unless I can be sure all is lubricated, is there anything I can do before I start engine again to make sure I do no further damage?

Has anyone used the Morgo oil filter ?

Thanks again for your help

Re: Squecking/ whistling noise from behind points. [Re: redrooster] #665093 08/24/16 3:16 pm
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Photo of oil in timeing chest[Linked Image]

Re: Squecking/ whistling noise from behind points. [Re: redrooster] #665094 08/24/16 3:17 pm
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RR,
Typical Triumph. Standard operating procedure is to place your finger over the hole in the oil tank where oil is spurting out of and build pressure to push oil to the rockers. I am also suspicious that the sound you hear is coming from un-lubricated parts in the top end. They are known to squeal when dry....

If you have "loose" overhead oil lines, it may pop off and make an oily mess all over the place....pay attention to that.

Cheers,

Bill




Bikes
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Re: Squecking/ whistling noise from behind points. [Re: redrooster] #665096 08/24/16 3:22 pm
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Photo of Morgo filter

[Linked Image]

Re: Squecking/ whistling noise from behind points. [Re: redrooster] #665100 08/24/16 3:32 pm
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Hi Bill,
Thanks for reply, I am thinking of oiling all manually again and covering oil return pipe hole to push oil through to the rockers as you suggest but also still thinking and open to as many suggestions as possible, great advice as allways
Thank you again

Re: Squecking/ whistling noise from behind points. [Re: redrooster] #665136 08/24/16 9:38 pm
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ken sak Offline
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hey red, whistling/ squeaking noise came from my 71-650 after my friend replaced the cam
bearings -not aligned properly/correct clearance- brass to steel ,only squeaking noise I've ever heard not from lack of oil, oil in points another problem , cam bearing just behind
points

when you said "my fourth britbike" a collection of 4?
more pic's please

Last edited by ken sak; 08/24/16 9:43 pm.
Re: Squecking/ whistling noise from behind points. [Re: ken sak] #665140 08/24/16 10:44 pm
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My BSA 441 Victim was whistling Dixie when I bought it. Cracked head gasket. Wish I had it back. Had to sell it to pay the rent. Fun bike.

Last edited by desco; 08/24/16 10:45 pm.

1968 T120R
1972 T120RV
Any advice given is without a warranty expressed or implied.
Re: Squecking/ whistling noise from behind points. [Re: desco] #665165 08/25/16 7:40 am
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Hi Ken, love showing the bikes, This is first bike I ever had at 14 years old, now had for 38 years.[Linked Image]

Re: Squecking/ whistling noise from behind points. [Re: redrooster] #665169 08/25/16 7:53 am
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1964 a65, engine completely rebuilt with advice and help from Britbike.[Linked Image]

Re: Squecking/ whistling noise from behind points. [Re: redrooster] #665171 08/25/16 7:58 am
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69 t120r, runs good but low compression in right cylinder. Many years of work and still at it[Linked Image]

Re: Squecking/ whistling noise from behind points. [Re: redrooster] #665173 08/25/16 8:07 am
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Found this photo when looking for others, shows me where I've been squirting oil.[Linked Image]

Re: Squecking/ whistling noise from behind points. [Re: redrooster] #665243 08/25/16 7:32 pm
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thanks Red, nice bikes. I've got a pre unit engine on my
coffee table - decor

Re: Squecking/ whistling noise from behind points. [Re: redrooster] #665275 08/26/16 6:52 am
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Dick Harris Offline
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check your headbolts. Dick

Re: Squecking/ whistling noise from behind points. [Re: Dick Harris] #665371 08/27/16 12:37 am
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Hi, thanks for all suggestions they have been really helpfull
Stuart, I tried screwdriver in ear but couldn't hear the noise at all with it. Will try removing filter next. Thinking of changing rocker feed to before filter if necessary ?
Bill, I removed bolts where oil lines connect to rocker box and squirted 15 ml of oil in to each and also 60ml over tappets etc then replaced bolts and covers
Started engine, held finger over oil return hole in tank and let the oil rise in the rocker feed pipe until it was feeding oil in to the rocker box,then took finger off of oil tank return and removed rocker box oil line bolts and oil could be seen dripping from banjo's. When bike first started couldn't hear noise but it got louder as bike warmed up ?
Only other thing mechanical I did to bike was set tappet clearances, what noise is made if they are set too tight. Set mine at 2.5 thou inlet and 4.5 thou outlet.
Dick, I will check headbolts, was thinking of this but a worry when they have not been touched for a while, don't want to break something and open a new can of worms so I sprayed carb cleaner around all gaskets etc and when I sprayed the joint between head and barrel on the left cylinder the engine cut out ?


Re: Squecking/ whistling noise from behind points. [Re: redrooster] #665385 08/27/16 6:08 am
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Originally Posted by redrooster
so I sprayed carb cleaner around all gaskets etc and when I sprayed the joint between head and barrel on the left cylinder the engine cut out ?


Do it again. If you can repeat the engine cutting out, it's a bad head gasket/loose head bolt. Squeaking/whistling is a common symptom for this.

As for the oil filter, I'm not familiar with Morgo's product, but all the external filters I've seen plumbed into the return line are before the rocker feed, not after it. The top end needs very little oil but it does need the oil to go to the right places (valve tips and push rod ends).

Steve


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"Vintage Bike". What's in your garage?

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Re: Squecking/ whistling noise from behind points. [Re: JubeePrince] #665580 08/29/16 7:01 am
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redrooster Offline OP
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Hi,
Thanks for replies
Tried carb cleaner and cut out again.
Checked head bolts, all are tight, very tight, maybe too tight ?
Maybe they were tightened to 15 ft.lbs and 25 ft.lbs as the older manuals. Mine manual says 15 ft.lb and 18 ft.lbs and that the 18 replaces the older 25 ft.lbs spec ?
Which is correct for 1970 model ?, I would think 15 and 18 but my bolts are way tighter but there probably a bit seized in there.
Warped head ?.
Tappet clearences too tight ??.

Bike runs for 3 or 4 minutes before noise starts.




Re: Squecking/ whistling noise from behind points. [Re: redrooster] #665588 08/29/16 8:06 am
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Originally Posted by redrooster

Tried carb cleaner and cut out again.

Warped head ?.


Blown copper head gasket. Even a crack in it around one of the bolt holes on the gasket is enough to need to be replaced.

Steve


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"Vintage Bike". What's in your garage?

"The paying customer is always right."

Fitting round pegs into square holes since 1961...
Re: Squecking/ whistling noise from behind points. [Re: JubeePrince] #665593 08/29/16 9:19 am
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ok, suppose I have been trying to avoid taking head off, here we go again, just annoying after getting bike to start first time, run and idle really well, must be a small leak as I really need to spray it in there and it was not there when I first got bike.probably the first ride put extra pressure on the gasket. Will probably be asking more questions as I find other things on the way, any advice or suggestions before I start or as I go to avoid making bad mistakes would be greatly appreciated.
Why does the noise not start straightway and get worse as engine warms up, thought things would tighten up as engine warmed up
Thanks again

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