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End float...let me know I'm doing this right. #664068 08/16/16 12:58 am
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Andy Haldeman Offline OP
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I did my best to understand based off searches, but want to confirm. With a timing side roller in my t140 the first dry fit left me with .035" side play. At that time I mocked up the barrels to look for conrod centering and I found that I needed to pull the crank all but a hair to the timing side to get them central. So I shimmed .027 behind the timing side inner race and .003 behind the drive side inner race. On reassembly I have .005 end play and the rods are right smack in the middle. Everything looks good to me, only thing that had me think twice was that I had read previously that most of the time the shimming needs to be behind the drive side. I'm probably overthinking it but just wanted to seek a consensus.

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Re: End float...let me know I'm doing this right. [Re: Andy Haldeman] #664164 08/16/16 7:15 pm
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Andy Haldeman Offline OP
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Anybody?

Re: End float...let me know I'm doing this right. [Re: Andy Haldeman] #664176 08/16/16 10:29 pm
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DMiller Offline
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I don't have any experience fitting roller bearings on the timing side, but I wouldn't be concerned with what others have seen "most of the time". Trut your measurements. It sounds like you are doing the right thing. I also would not be too concerned with how central your rods are in the bores unless the rods and bores are known to be straight. I have seen brand new replacement rods that were out as much as .02" over the length of the rod. I started using the MAP steel rods because they are actually straight and parallel...








Re: End float...let me know I'm doing this right. [Re: Andy Haldeman] #664180 08/16/16 11:15 pm
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Andy,

There once was a really good thread on this subject, called '64 Crank Location but it got wiped out in the great BritBike thread disappearance (circa 2013?). Sadly, at least for me, it could not be retrieved. Then, Pete R. died. However, there is a lot of information on this subject that still resides here and can be found with a search. The concept of crankshaft lateral movement in a Triumph engine is somewhat controversial, with some experts saying it cannot happen, and others saying that it can and does. Pete R. was strongly of the opinion that lateral movement occurs, and was a strong advocate of shimming toward the low end of the tolerance. Without putting words in his mouth, I think it would be fair to say that John Healy had a gentleman's disagreement with Pete on this topic.

Anyway, in case you haven't found them, here are some threads you may want to read and study. It could keep you busy for a while. Meantime, maybe somebody will give you a direct answer to your question. I have never seen the inside of a T140 engine and am not qualified to have any input.

{Edit: DMiller and I were posting at the same time. Coincidentally, he was the author who started that thread I referenced '64 Crank Location, which accidentally got deleted.}

Ray
________________________________

Timing Side bearing hole problem

T140 crank shims

1971 T120R crank end float

Crank Shimming

Centering rods in bore

Cranksahft endfloat

500 Crank end float

Bearings in crankcases

Bearing clarification

Bearing movement in crankcases

Last edited by TR6Ray; 08/16/16 11:19 pm.

'64 TR6R Plus some Twins from other countries (U.S., Germany, Japan)
Re: End float...let me know I'm doing this right. [Re: Andy Haldeman] #664183 08/17/16 12:59 am
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Thanks to you both for your input. I'm gonna move forward and try not to sweat all this so heavily. Tr6ray you have enlightened me to the matter that I need to learn a few more tricks to milking the most out of the search engine. I typically just google questions but I should start searching within the site. Those are great references you provided and I'm learning a lot.

Re: End float...let me know I'm doing this right. [Re: Andy Haldeman] #664198 08/17/16 4:31 am
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On BSA Unit singles when I fit double rollers I shim to 3 to 5 thou. Even though the cases are alloy and should grow more than the steel crank during warm up you have to account for the crank warming up first hence minimum 3 thou.

Re: End float...let me know I'm doing this right. [Re: Andy Haldeman] #664595 08/20/16 5:30 am
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ken sak Offline
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I can't see why there is so much talk about Centering rods in bore, car pistons are never centred
on the rod ,how much sideways movement about 1/8"

750 crank into 6t cases, put $80 bearing onto timing gear side of crank
oops needs shim, not enough room to put knife edge puller in to pull
on inner race , buy another ,cause I don't trust using a bearing pulled off
a tight inner race by outer race.

anyone have a experience with crank endfoat on above setup
case is being bored to 750 bearing .0025 interference
some advice years ago to just use 650 bearing
trouble with oval holes and spun holes in cases no thanks


Re: End float...let me know I'm doing this right. [Re: ken sak] #664604 08/20/16 8:43 am
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It's my understanding that a 750 crank is too wide to fit 650 cases ? So the crank width has been reduced? Or ?


79 T140D, 96 900M Ducati ....On a bike you can out run the demons..
Re: End float...let me know I'm doing this right. [Re: Hillbilly bike] #664608 08/20/16 9:39 am
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As I understood it, if two threads were machined off the right end of the crank, so as to provide clearance for the timing cover, and 20 thou is removed from the RH main journal, t h e T140 crank will go straight into pre unit cases.
The "one piece" crank was introduced in 1959, and kept the basic dimensions, re bearing journals, until the metric timing side bearing in 1971.

Re: End float...let me know I'm doing this right. [Re: NickL] #664678 08/21/16 3:38 am
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Triless Offline
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Not ever having been involved in the execution of this myself, I assume that turning off .020" from the timing side journal of the T140 crank was to enable it to fit the imperial bearing of the earlier engines.
I have imperial and metric cranks, and I should neasure these instead of relying on something I was told years ago !

Re: End float...let me know I'm doing this right. [Re: Andy Haldeman] #664685 08/21/16 6:20 am
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Andy, if your T140 uses the NUP 306 three piece bearing then I reckon the end float is controlled by the running clearance when the crank nut is tightened with the pinion etc all in place. Someone correct me if I'm wrong.

HTH Peter


'74 T140V,'83 XR1000, C&J FLATTRACKER T140,
Re: End float...let me know I'm doing this right. [Re: wilksville] #664691 08/21/16 7:10 am
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Yes, the NUP bearing has the ability to locate the T140 crank like the previous ball bearing, but with greater load capacity.
An alternative, which I'm giving some consideration to, is a NSK BL 306 C3. This has eleven balls, as opposed to the early 6036 C3, which only had eight.

Re: End float...let me know I'm doing this right. [Re: Triless] #664746 08/21/16 3:03 pm
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ken sak Offline
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Originally Posted by Triless
As I understood it, if two threads were machined off the right end of the crank, so as to provide clearance for the timing cover, and 20 thou is removed from the RH main journal, t h e T140 crank will go straight into pre unit cases.
The "one piece" crank was introduced in 1959, and kept the basic dimensions, re bearing journals, until the metric timing side bearing in 1971.


thanks for that info on the two threads needed to be machined off the right end of the crank, the case is being bored to suit the metric bearing, prob out of round ,the crank size was increased at the bearing to make it stronger
I did hear they fitted straight in before I bought all the 750
stuff -pretty close, thanks again

Re: End float...let me know I'm doing this right. [Re: wilksville] #664769 08/21/16 6:57 pm
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Andy Haldeman Offline OP
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Originally Posted by wilksville
Andy, if your T140 uses the NUP 306 three piece bearing then I reckon the end float is controlled by the running clearance when the crank nut is tightened with the pinion etc all in place. Someone correct me if I'm wrong.

HTH Peter



Interesting! I have never heard that. So hopefully the effort was not in vain, but that would maybe explain why the old bearing wasn't shimmed at all. Previously had the RHP nup 306et I believe it is and now I've got an Nsk of the same number on board


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