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My A70 #616744
09/09/15 9:12 pm
09/09/15 9:12 pm
Joined: Jun 2013
Posts: 94
Texas, USA
R
Ray Elliott Offline OP
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Ray Elliott  Offline OP
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R
Joined: Jun 2013
Posts: 94
Texas, USA
About a year ago I bought an A70 on eBay. I had wanted one for 40+ years. I tried to buy one about '78 from a fellow who rode into the Honda shop where I was working. He had no idea what he had. I guess I was too eager & he figured it out: he rode off & never returned.

This one was in pieces (though the engine not disassembled) & quite a few pieces were missing (no big deal as I have NOS or very good used parts for most).

Frankly I was fearful when I bought it as it was located 1600 miles from me: I had to go by pictures & conversations with the owner. It had a Triumph gas tank & the frame looked 'odd'. The space between the oil filler & rear frame looked like a '74+ T140 not an early OIF. The serial # was confirmed valid & I jumped in. I arranged for a company to pick it up & deliver it to me. I just couldn't bring myself to drive that far.

After it arrived I stuck a pencil in a spark plug hole & 'checked the stroke'. It was longer. The 7 stamp on the cases above the gearbox was there. Then I pulled off the timing covers & could see the thrust washer over the bushing. I finally quit panicking over what I'd bought.

It was the first time I had seen inside an A70. Then I had thoughts: I really don't know anything about the differences in an A70 engine & there was no way to pull the timing side gear without a puller as there is no clearance between the thrust washer, case & gear.

My original 'factory' puller was stolen with all my tools in the late 70s. So it was off to my buddy's mill & we made a gizmo to slide over the gear & fit a puller. It worked fine.

The cylinder base nuts were painted pink. No idea about that story. The oil was burned goo. The bushing clearance with 0.006". I found a NOS 0.010 bush on eBay.

I turned my attention to the frame & stripped it bare. What I found is interesting: someone had grafted a T140 subframe onto the original frame. I do not know the history of this machine so I have no idea who did it or when. But the work is good. And the subframe is straight. I found no cracks.

Pictures of the frame and timing side thrust washer are here. Some may find it interesting. Maybe someone will know the history of this frame.

My painter in Vietnam (where I usually work) painted a tank I had on the shelf for $40. I cannot paint & there's no use torturing myself trying. Since the frame isn't original I've decided not to worry about original colors & all that hysteria.

The frame has been coated with KBS & painted with black top coat. It looks quite nice.

When it cools here in Houston I'll turn back to the engine & will post quite a few questions before reassembly! I don't care if I hose an A65, but this one needs to be right the first time.

Thanks folks!


Ray Elliott
---
A65, A70, A75, T120, T140, T150, T160
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Re: My A70 [Re: Ray Elliott] #616756
09/09/15 10:28 pm
09/09/15 10:28 pm
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 4,325
Santa Barbara, California
KC in S.B. Offline

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KC in S.B.  Offline

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Posts: 4,325
Santa Barbara, California
Very interesting! Thanks for posting. I expect you will get more questions than answers on an A70. I for one have never seen that timing side Thrust Washer you mentioned. Since the timeing side has the inner Thrust Washer between the crank check and the case, having a way the limit travel in the opossite direction on the outer timeing side case makes alot of sense. It certainly has to be better than the stack-up of shim washers !! Please do post more as you get it apart!


Down to 1 BSA, 2 Triumphs, 1 '56 Chevy
Oops,.. add 1 Sporty
Re: My A70 [Re: Ray Elliott] #616785
09/10/15 3:31 am
09/10/15 3:31 am
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 2,390
Bega NSW Australia
Mark Parker Offline
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Mark Parker  Offline
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Posts: 2,390
Bega NSW Australia
EdV has A70 pistons.


mark
Re: My A70 [Re: Ray Elliott] #616832
09/10/15 2:04 pm
09/10/15 2:04 pm
Joined: Jul 2012
Posts: 333
Forfar, Scotland
J
JER.Hill Offline
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JER.Hill  Offline
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J
Joined: Jul 2012
Posts: 333
Forfar, Scotland
Hi Ray

Long time no speak. Personally never been inside an A70. But as Mark P said get into touch with Ed Valiket he know the motors. Also as Nick L said having that bearing set-up has benefits over the original.

We'll all be looking forward to seeing your future posts on the rebuild.

John

Re: My A70 [Re: JER.Hill] #616872
09/10/15 8:17 pm
09/10/15 8:17 pm
Joined: Aug 2014
Posts: 313
Bowral NSW Australia
John Goodwin Offline
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John Goodwin  Offline
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Joined: Aug 2014
Posts: 313
Bowral NSW Australia
There's a good cross section drawing of the crank and cases clearly showing the double thrust washers either side of the timing side bearing in the 1970 A70 parts supplement which is on Kims the CD man BSA manual set.
I'd post a copy of it but not sure if that would be ethically correct?
Doesn't look like it would be a major hassle to incorporate the idea in standard A65's if they didn't change the width of the bearing housing in the crankcase casting. It would need some machining and I suppose if you're going to do that you may as well go the whole hog and do the needle roller conversion while you're at it.

Here's a bit of the cross section, I'll remove it if it's considered bad form



Current: 2 x 1966 A65S, 1 x 1967 A65SA, 1 x 69/70? A65LA space Y, 1 X D14/4 & 1 x B175
Past: 4 x 1976 T160V, 1 74/5 T150V, 83 model GSX 750 ESD, Z650, Katana 1100(Bathurst Model), 79 T140V, 70's TR6, 2 x 1971 BSA 250 Gold Stars, 50's 350 Goldie, A65 Spitfire semi basket case, 1965/6? A65 LC, Tiger 21 350 & a D14/4 Bantam, 175 Bridgestone Twin with Zimmerman discs!
Re: My A70 [Re: Ray Elliott] #718501
12/12/17 8:45 am
12/12/17 8:45 am
Joined: Aug 2016
Posts: 85
UK - Bucks
Steve Wilson Offline

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Steve Wilson  Offline

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Joined: Aug 2016
Posts: 85
UK - Bucks
Ray - or anyone else who knows...
Can you tell me how thick the thrust washer is? (No 9 in the parts list) looks like about 1/8"
Also - the shims (Number 10) In the picture they look like they are the same diameter as the thrust washer but that doesn't make sense?
I'm in the process of converting my A65 to this arrangement.
Cheers
Steve


SJW
Re: My A70 [Re: Ray Elliott] #718556
12/12/17 9:04 pm
12/12/17 9:04 pm
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 818
Farnham, Surrey, UK
gunner Offline
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gunner  Offline
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Posts: 818
Farnham, Surrey, UK
Nice find and from your description the engine seems to be original so that's a bonus.

Not sure why someone would try and graft a T140 sub-frame onto an OIF A65/A70 frame, I can only guess it was because of previous accident damage.

If it was my bike, I would get the frame checked for alignment, distortion and integrity by a company using a moto-liner type jig. Very often bike frames over 40 years old have suffered all kinds of incidents and although the frame may appear straight some of the critical measurements such as head rake & twist, swinging arm alignment etc. may well be out of spec.

I would also be a bit worried about the large amount of brazing around the frame and oil filler hole. This may well be sound and perfectly usable and I don't know how much strength is needed in this area, others may chime in with advise.


1968 A65 Firebird
1967 B44 Shooting Star
1972 Norton Commando
Re: My A70 [Re: Steve Wilson] #718559
12/12/17 9:36 pm
12/12/17 9:36 pm
Joined: May 2013
Posts: 4,871
Rotherham - S. Yorkshire
Allan Gill Offline

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Allan Gill  Offline

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Joined: May 2013
Posts: 4,871
Rotherham - S. Yorkshire
Originally Posted by Steve Wilson
Ray - or anyone else who knows...
Can you tell me how thick the thrust washer is? (No 9 in the parts list) looks like about 1/8"
Also - the shims (Number 10) In the picture they look like they are the same diameter as the thrust washer but that doesn't make sense?
I'm in the process of converting my A65 to this arrangement.
Cheers
Steve


Why convert an A65 to this when you can fit a ball end DS, I’ve already got more miles out of my RHP Ball bearing DS than I had out of a RHP roller, also the crank end float is locked. The bike is used for touring and “scratching” and sees some punishment, so a good candidate in my opinion.


beerchug
Re: My A70 [Re: NickL] #718608
12/13/17 8:34 am
12/13/17 8:34 am
Joined: Dec 2017
Posts: 191
England
F
ferretjuggler Offline
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ferretjuggler  Offline
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F
Joined: Dec 2017
Posts: 191
England
+1 for the thrust washer conversion on my A65.
I'm not keen on the end feed conversion or that needle roller main bearing.

But I could possibly be persuaded to go for the DS ball race instead.
I'm not sure about it's durability on a lightning spec engine.
The roller appeared shortly after BSA started to tune up these engines.
Were the ball races failing early, or was it just a precaution ?

Re: My A70 [Re: Steve Wilson] #718641
12/13/17 3:32 pm
12/13/17 3:32 pm
Joined: Jun 2013
Posts: 94
Texas, USA
R
Ray Elliott Offline OP
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Ray Elliott  Offline OP
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R
Joined: Jun 2013
Posts: 94
Texas, USA

Steve - I know I wrote this down somewhere because I was so paranoid about losing the one I have. The engine is on my workbench. I only need to pull off the pinion. I'll measure the shim & thrust washer sizes. IIRC I found an appropriate shim @ McMaster but didn't need to buy any.

Originally Posted by Steve Wilson
Ray - or anyone else who knows...


Ray Elliott
---
A65, A70, A75, T120, T140, T150, T160
Re: My A70 [Re: JER.Hill] #718642
12/13/17 3:45 pm
12/13/17 3:45 pm
Joined: Jun 2013
Posts: 94
Texas, USA
R
Ray Elliott Offline OP
BritBike Forum member
Ray Elliott  Offline OP
BritBike Forum member
R
Joined: Jun 2013
Posts: 94
Texas, USA
John - now that that work project from Hell is done I look forward to having a life again & being able to complete it (as well as any other projects).

Ray

Originally Posted by JER.Hill
Hi Ray

Long time no speak. Personally never been inside an A70. But as Mark P said get into touch with Ed Valiket he know the motors. Also as Nick L said having that bearing set-up has benefits over the original.

We'll all be looking forward to seeing your future posts on the rebuild.

John


Ray Elliott
---
A65, A70, A75, T120, T140, T150, T160
Re: My A70 [Re: Ray Elliott] #718685
12/13/17 11:15 pm
12/13/17 11:15 pm
Joined: Jun 2013
Posts: 94
Texas, USA
R
Ray Elliott Offline OP
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Ray Elliott  Offline OP
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R
Joined: Jun 2013
Posts: 94
Texas, USA
I ran into an issue. Can't find my pinion puller. It's necessary on the A70 as the pinion is flat against the thrust washer. But I have some measurements that should solve the problem. I measured in mm for some odd reason.

Thrust washer recess is 54.5 mm wide & 3.37 mm deep. The washer is a reasonably tight fit, but I was able to slip in a piece of wire to get the depth.

The bushing is about 2.2 mm shorter than the A65 bush. I bought a 0.010" bush for use but ended up milling a bronze bush to the correct width bec I only wanted to make the crank round instead of taking to -0.010".

I'll make a serious search for my pinion puller so I actually can measure the washer.

The pinion is wider. Some seller on eBay has 10+ so they'll be available for a while.

All things considered, for an A65 I would do a bearing conversion. The right outer case has to be setup on a mill, find center & mill out the washer recess. It is no more work to fit a bearing. The crank has to be turned in either case. It is likely less work to turn to fit a bearing race. That only leaves drilling the end feed hole, fitting a quill, blocking the bush feed hole & fitting which ever type feed you want, internal or external.


Ray Elliott
---
A65, A70, A75, T120, T140, T150, T160
Re: My A70 [Re: gunner] #718686
12/13/17 11:21 pm
12/13/17 11:21 pm
Joined: Jun 2013
Posts: 94
Texas, USA
R
Ray Elliott Offline OP
BritBike Forum member
Ray Elliott  Offline OP
BritBike Forum member
R
Joined: Jun 2013
Posts: 94
Texas, USA
The seller knew nothing of the history. He'd bought it off CL. The fit is excellent & from my measurements is straight. I have thought about sending it & a spare frame to Framecrafters to make it original. But that's too much money.

Originally Posted by gunner
Not sure why someone would try and graft a T140 sub-frame onto an OIF A65/A70 frame, I can only guess it was because of previous accident damage.


Ray Elliott
---
A65, A70, A75, T120, T140, T150, T160
Re: My A70 [Re: NickL] #718687
12/13/17 11:24 pm
12/13/17 11:24 pm
Joined: Jun 2013
Posts: 94
Texas, USA
R
Ray Elliott Offline OP
BritBike Forum member
Ray Elliott  Offline OP
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R
Joined: Jun 2013
Posts: 94
Texas, USA
I wish I'd read this earlier. This would work exactly right.

Originally Posted by NickL
The shims are the same od as the crank.

I'm also going to have to do this mod to a damaged engine i have in at the moment. (Drive side bearing pushed out through cases.)
I'm going to make the thrust washer 2.4mm thick and have 2.5 machined into the case and 2.4 off the crank, i may have to shim it another thou or 2, we'll see.
The new ts bush will be formed/machined as the opposite thrust.

The od of the thrust looks like about 52mm. You can't go much bigger due to the pump stud. It doesn't need much anyway.
It will be cheaper and easier than end feeding it.

I think Danny at Burtons has the original ts bushes in stock, (well he did 35 years ago anyway.......)


Ray Elliott
---
A65, A70, A75, T120, T140, T150, T160
Re: My A70 [Re: Ray Elliott] #718690
12/13/17 11:33 pm
12/13/17 11:33 pm
Joined: May 2013
Posts: 4,871
Rotherham - S. Yorkshire
Allan Gill Offline

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Allan Gill  Offline

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Joined: May 2013
Posts: 4,871
Rotherham - S. Yorkshire
I can only go by my own experiences as you do Nick, I found a new bearing was a close fit in the outer race when new and was a firm fit on the crank, any slight tilt in the rollers when fitting the complete lot meant that the cases wouldn’t go together. The engine also started to show more vibes after a few thousand miles than when the bearing was new. The ball race was employed (after taking advice from a well respected friend, who has been to many internationals on his A65 and not known for dawdling has had good service out of his DS ball race. I eventually took his advice and been happy with it. To boot the CR of my bike is around 10:1

Not denying that the specs of the roller outweigh the ball, but they were also never designed to assist with end float control. Granted the A70 style bush conversion takes the issue of end float away from the DS side and placed onto the timing side, leaving the issue of the bearing no longer taking side thrust from end float.


Another thing to note is most owners bikes will never see enough miles to wear out any of the original style components.


beerchug
Re: My A70 [Re: Allan Gill] #718723
12/14/17 7:03 am
12/14/17 7:03 am
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 3,763
Sydney Australia
B
BSA_WM20 Offline
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BSA_WM20  Offline
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B
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 3,763
Sydney Australia
Originally Posted by Allan Gill
I can only go by my own experiences as you do Nick, I found a new bearing was a close fit in the outer race when new and was a firm fit on the crank, any slight tilt in the rollers when fitting the complete lot meant that the cases wouldn’t go together. The engine also started to show more vibes after a few thousand miles than when the bearing was new. The ball race was employed (after taking advice from a well respected friend, who has been to many internationals on his A65 and not known for dawdling has had good service out of his DS ball race. I eventually took his advice and been happy with it. To boot the CR of my bike is around 10:1

Not denying that the specs of the roller outweigh the ball, but they were also never designed to assist with end float control. Granted the A70 style bush conversion takes the issue of end float away from the DS side and placed onto the timing side, leaving the issue of the bearing no longer taking side thrust from end float.


Another thing to note is most owners bikes will never see enough miles to wear out any of the original style components.


Too true.
They were just adequate when the bikes war ridden to wok every day then taken out and thrashed on the weekend oft two up.
Now days when they might get a run 2 hours a month, rusting away is a bigger problem hence all the psts about sticking clutches, Carb stiction & wet sumping, three things I never knew existed till I turned 40


Bike Beesa
Trevor
Re: My A70 [Re: Ray Elliott] #718732
12/14/17 10:07 am
12/14/17 10:07 am
Joined: Aug 2016
Posts: 85
UK - Bucks
Steve Wilson Offline

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Steve Wilson  Offline

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Joined: Aug 2016
Posts: 85
UK - Bucks
Thanks for that - I don't need to exactly replicate the A70 but would like to be close as someone would have made some effort to get it right back in the day - No sense in ignoring their efforts.


SJW
Re: My A70 [Re: Ray Elliott] #718733
12/14/17 10:08 am
12/14/17 10:08 am
Joined: Aug 2016
Posts: 85
UK - Bucks
Steve Wilson Offline

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Steve Wilson  Offline

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Joined: Aug 2016
Posts: 85
UK - Bucks
Thanks. That's useful


SJW
Re: My A70 [Re: Allan Gill] #718735
12/14/17 10:21 am
12/14/17 10:21 am
Joined: Aug 2016
Posts: 85
UK - Bucks
Steve Wilson Offline

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Steve Wilson  Offline

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Joined: Aug 2016
Posts: 85
UK - Bucks
Alan - I see your logic but What I am trying to fix Is the oil pressure issue - fixing the end float at the timing side doesn't do that. I'm happy with the Roller bearing. If I use the A70 method it reduces clearance at the edges of the timing side bush and so prevents oil spilling out the sides - Which is claimed to be the reason for oil starvation on the big ends when the bush wears. The Devimead combined roller conversion appears to me to be a lot more work in comparison. (And a lot more cost)
Cheers
Steve


SJW
Re: My A70 [Re: Ray Elliott] #718736
12/14/17 10:23 am
12/14/17 10:23 am
Joined: Aug 2016
Posts: 85
UK - Bucks
Steve Wilson Offline

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Steve Wilson  Offline

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Joined: Aug 2016
Posts: 85
UK - Bucks
Ray - Interested in that crank pinion - not sure what would be different - do you have a link to that eBay vendor?
Cheers
Steve


SJW
Re: My A70 [Re: NickL] #718757
12/14/17 4:11 pm
12/14/17 4:11 pm
Joined: Jun 2013
Posts: 94
Texas, USA
R
Ray Elliott Offline OP
BritBike Forum member
Ray Elliott  Offline OP
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R
Joined: Jun 2013
Posts: 94
Texas, USA
Steve - I agree w NickL. The A70 gear is wider so that it has a flat surface against the thrust washer. It makes removing the gear without a puller that slides into the gear slots impossible. I took a piece of 1/4" x 2" x 1" steel & milled a slot for the gear. Then I use a 2 jaw puller against that gizmo (that I cannot find). If you're making a thrust washer it'd be easy to make it appropriate for the A65 gear.

Originally Posted by NickL
https://www.eBay.com.au/itm/71-2689-NOS-Crankshaft-Timing-Pinion-Gear-BSA-750-Twin-A70-S192/312017437241?hash=item48a5b04239:g:XMAAAOSwpdpVZmrl

You don't have to use this pinion, it depends on how you do the thrust washer and turn the crank.


Ray Elliott
---
A65, A70, A75, T120, T140, T150, T160
Re: My A70 [Re: Ray Elliott] #718814
12/15/17 1:11 am
12/15/17 1:11 am
Joined: Jun 2013
Posts: 94
Texas, USA
R
Ray Elliott Offline OP
BritBike Forum member
Ray Elliott  Offline OP
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R
Joined: Jun 2013
Posts: 94
Texas, USA
I have pictures of the bush side before & after disassembly. PM me & I'll gladly share them.


Ray Elliott
---
A65, A70, A75, T120, T140, T150, T160
Re: My A70 [Re: Steve Wilson] #718833
12/15/17 1:37 pm
12/15/17 1:37 pm
Joined: May 2013
Posts: 4,871
Rotherham - S. Yorkshire
Allan Gill Offline

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Allan Gill  Offline

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Joined: May 2013
Posts: 4,871
Rotherham - S. Yorkshire
Originally Posted by Steve Wilson
Alan - I see your logic but What I am trying to fix Is the oil pressure issue - fixing the end float at the timing side doesn't do that. I'm happy with the Roller bearing. If I use the A70 method it reduces clearance at the edges of the timing side bush and so prevents oil spilling out the sides - Which is claimed to be the reason for oil starvation on the big ends when the bush wears. The Devimead combined roller conversion appears to me to be a lot more work in comparison. (And a lot more cost)
Cheers
Steve



Even with the standard bush it should be a long time before you reach any surveer wear on the bush for it to cause pressure problems, a friends bike has covered over 20k with no problems, and Push Rod Tom's Hornet uses (or did use) the bush arrangement on his LSR bike, my 650 race motor will also get trialled with the bush arrangement too. However I completely agree that if your going to use a roller then the end float should be controlled at the timing side, which will limit the side thrust on the DS bearing lip.


beerchug
Re: My A70 [Re: Ray Elliott] #719058
12/17/17 12:02 am
12/17/17 12:02 am
Joined: Jun 2013
Posts: 94
Texas, USA
R
Ray Elliott Offline OP
BritBike Forum member
Ray Elliott  Offline OP
BritBike Forum member
R
Joined: Jun 2013
Posts: 94
Texas, USA
I found my puller, so here's some dims on the machined thrust washer recess, thrust washer & pinion.

Recess
----------
OD = 2.144" or 54.55mm
Depth = 0.124" or 3.11mm

Thrust Washer
-------------------
OD = 2.123" or 53.97mm
ID = 0.75" or 19.05mm
Thickness = 0.096" or 2.45mm

Thrust Washer Shims
-----------------------------
I didn't measure, but they're slightly larger on ID than the washer and fit only over the end of the crank, not crank & crankcase. So they're much smaller than drive side shims.

Pinion
---------------
A65 - Side to side at highest point = 0.678" or 17.23mm
A70 - Side to side at highest point = 0.684" or 17.37mm

The A70 pinion as flat on the thrust washer side unlike the A65.


Ray Elliott
---
A65, A70, A75, T120, T140, T150, T160
Re: My A70 [Re: Ray Elliott] #719090
12/17/17 12:58 pm
12/17/17 12:58 pm
Joined: May 2013
Posts: 4,871
Rotherham - S. Yorkshire
Allan Gill Offline

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Allan Gill  Offline

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Joined: May 2013
Posts: 4,871
Rotherham - S. Yorkshire
Great information Ray! What are the chances that you have any photos to accompany this? All I have seen is the data sheet/diagram showing what parts are different and a set of crank cases.


beerchug
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