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Re: My A70 [Re: Ray Elliott] #729206
03/19/18 8:37 pm
03/19/18 8:37 pm
Joined: Jun 2013
Posts: 97
Texas, USA
R
Ray Elliott Offline OP
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Ray Elliott  Offline OP
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Joined: Jun 2013
Posts: 97
Texas, USA
Looks might fine to me. Turning that crank must have been tedious.


Ray Elliott
---
A65, A70, A75, T120, T140, T150, T160
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Re: My A70 [Re: NickL] #729213
03/19/18 9:15 pm
03/19/18 9:15 pm
Joined: Aug 2016
Posts: 87
UK - Bucks
Steve Wilson Offline

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Steve Wilson  Offline

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Its just a small step - I left the job to the professionals - they definitely turn not grind. I guess with the right tip tool and a big lathe its no problem
Steve

Last edited by Steve Wilson; 03/19/18 9:17 pm. Reason: Answered wrong comment!

SJW
Re: My A70 [Re: NickL] #729215
03/19/18 9:18 pm
03/19/18 9:18 pm
Joined: Aug 2016
Posts: 87
UK - Bucks
Steve Wilson Offline

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Steve Wilson  Offline

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Originally Posted by NickL
All looks tickety boo to me. Bloody copy cat!!!!!! smile


Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery :-)


SJW
Re: My A70 [Re: Ray Elliott] #729224
03/19/18 10:18 pm
03/19/18 10:18 pm
Joined: Jan 2014
Posts: 4,164
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NickL Offline
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Turning the crank journal is not that bad, just go easy 75-100rpm or so.
Easier without the flywheel on.

Tipped tools???? not required, just good/well made ones.

Last edited by NickL; 03/19/18 11:29 pm.

No-one expects the Spanish Inquisition................
Bring in the 'Comfy Chair'
Re: My A70 [Re: Ray Elliott] #729625
03/22/18 10:16 pm
03/22/18 10:16 pm
Joined: Mar 2011
Posts: 838
derby england
wak Offline
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derby england
Is there a reason you lot are replacing composite VP3 bearings with lumps of brass, sorry "bronze" ,it seems crazy , would you consider making big ends out of bronze ??? I guess the answer would be no , so why do in to the main bearing?????


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Re: My A70 [Re: Ray Elliott] #729640
03/23/18 1:12 am
03/23/18 1:12 am
Joined: Jan 2014
Posts: 4,164
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NickL Offline
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First up, 660 bronze is not in any way 'brass' look at the specs.
Normally i would use the steel backed shell type whenever i can, i do prefer them. (previous post)
I needed to create this arrangement as i needed a thrust face on the timing end of the bearing. (see the previous posts)
Many people use the one piece bronze type bearings nowadays even people like SRM sell them, admitedly they are PB1
but i have found in the past that material is a bit hard and wears the crank journal over time in these motors.
If in were to use it, i would have the journal hardened or hard chrome plated. I have used it when using a needle race inner
as a sleeve, with an A10 crank or with a badly damaged A65 one. One of the things about the standard bearing is the
lining has an embed-ability which PB1 does not, 660 is a very good alternative.
As for a comparison of big ends with the timing side main, loadings are totally different, many engines used bronze
bearings on the timing side over the years.
One of the problems with the steel shell type is they are made with a standard OD, as you probably know, when the bearing
is worn it tends to flog the case and this then needs to have a few thou removed to ensure the aperture is round again.
This means the standard bearing OD is too small so re-lining or fitting a standard bearing is not an option, a complete
two piece bearing must be made up as a special, this is a much more difficult and expensive route than a one piece bronze one.

I hope this answers your question.
Any sensible alternative path for a future application in this situation would be appreciated.
The customer was not prepared to go to the expensive of an end-fed needle arrangement.


No-one expects the Spanish Inquisition................
Bring in the 'Comfy Chair'
Re: My A70 [Re: Ray Elliott] #729643
03/23/18 1:36 am
03/23/18 1:36 am
Joined: Jan 2014
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NickL Offline
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Specs from Vandervell on the used lining material, it is also a leaded bronze not brass.

'VP2 is a lead bronze material which is continuously cast onto steel strip. Casting and quenching conditions are controlled in order to produce a microstructure with vertically orientated
bronze columns. This gives the bearing material its superior strength increasing its compressive load capacity. When plated with lead indium it has become the favoured material for
racing engines. The combination of a lead tin alumina overlay with VP2 improves wear resistance by a factor of two when compared with a lead tin copper overlay. In addition
the shaft conditioning properties are enhanced and fatigue resistance is improved.'

'VP3 is similar to VP2. It is supplied with either a lead tin copper or lead indium overlay.'

Last edited by NickL; 03/23/18 1:39 am.

No-one expects the Spanish Inquisition................
Bring in the 'Comfy Chair'
Re: My A70 [Re: Ray Elliott] #729660
03/23/18 9:13 am
03/23/18 9:13 am
Joined: Aug 2013
Posts: 25
England
Servodyne Offline
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Servodyne  Offline
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England
Hi there.

On a similar subject of bearing material, SRM have informed me that the only difference between the A70 big end shells and ones for the A65 is a higher spec of material.

Could anybody out there please confirm this as pictorially the A70 shells appear slightly wider in the sectional view in the parts catalogue and A65 shells do appear to be too narrow for the A70 rods.

Cheers



1957 BSA A10 Spitfire
1971 BSA A65 Firebird
1971 BSA A70 Lightning
1975 Norton Commando
1961 Norton 99
Re: My A70 [Re: Ray Elliott] #729753
03/23/18 10:57 pm
03/23/18 10:57 pm
Joined: Jan 2014
Posts: 4,164
Aus
N
NickL Offline
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NickL  Offline
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Aus
As far as i know, the A65 and A70 big end shells are identical. The A70 did use steel capped rods, but so did very late A65's.

The timing side main on the A70 is narrower due to the thrust arrangement.


No-one expects the Spanish Inquisition................
Bring in the 'Comfy Chair'
Re: My A70 [Re: NickL] #729968
03/26/18 8:50 am
03/26/18 8:50 am
Joined: Aug 2016
Posts: 87
UK - Bucks
Steve Wilson Offline

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Steve Wilson  Offline

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I agree with Nick - and its really a heck of a lot cheaper and less complicated in comparison with the roller bearing conversion.
For what its worth I can recommend T&L engineering in Bedford for the work if you are in the UK
Steve


SJW
Re: My A70 [Re: NickL] #730002
03/26/18 6:08 pm
03/26/18 6:08 pm
Joined: Mar 2011
Posts: 838
derby england
wak Offline
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derby england
well I'm not sure how the 2 compare , VP3 is listed as"being suitable for racing applications" were 660 is listed as "being suitable for valve and pump bodies and medium load and medium speed bearings". The fact SRM use it says it all , I'm surprised they don't anodize them blue for good measure lol. Anyway I guess if the housing and crank are worn its a way out.


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BSA B50MX
TRIUMPH TR6C
BSA BUSHMAN
BSA Gold Star Daytona
BSA Gold Star Scrambler
BSA Rocket Gold Star
BSA C15S
BSA Cyclone
Triumph T120
Triumph T100 Daytona
Triumph 5TA Trials
Triumph T100 Scrambles
Cheney 560 TT
Re: My A70 [Re: NickL] #730497
03/31/18 10:54 pm
03/31/18 10:54 pm
Joined: Aug 2016
Posts: 87
UK - Bucks
Steve Wilson Offline

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Steve Wilson  Offline

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Posts: 87
UK - Bucks
Just an idiot grade question but - the shells are narrower than the conrod big end right? May be obvious to seasoned rebuilders but I'm used to cars where the shell is the same width as the conrod !!
Steve


SJW
Re: My A70 [Re: Ray Elliott] #734889
05/11/18 1:51 pm
05/11/18 1:51 pm
Joined: Aug 2016
Posts: 87
UK - Bucks
Steve Wilson Offline

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Steve Wilson  Offline

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UK - Bucks
Bikes now back together and running. so the conversion works - at least short term. Time will tell. I should be able to produce a drawing and memo detailing the specifics if anyone's interested. The basic principal is simple but there's some subtleties in the fine tuning.


SJW
Re: My A70 [Re: Ray Elliott] #734929
05/11/18 10:40 pm
05/11/18 10:40 pm
Joined: Jan 2014
Posts: 4,164
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NickL Offline
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Aus
Nice one Steve, how's the oil pressure?
The engine i converted is still sitting on my bench waiting for me to fit back into the frame.
The owner just dropped the bike over as he now wants me to rebuild the forks etc.
He has been too busy at work to get on with the bike.
It'll be a couple of weeks before i fire that one up. It's a nice cafe' racer 1970 (converted from a Royal Star Police bike)
Pukka rear sets, big alley tank, single seat etc


No-one expects the Spanish Inquisition................
Bring in the 'Comfy Chair'
Re: My A70 [Re: NickL] #735044
05/12/18 8:57 pm
05/12/18 8:57 pm
Joined: Aug 2016
Posts: 87
UK - Bucks
Steve Wilson Offline

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Steve Wilson  Offline

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Posts: 87
UK - Bucks
Haven't hooked up a pressure gauge - I'm busy with a charging problem at the moment. I had one about somewhere - will see if I can find it


SJW
Re: My A70 [Re: Ray Elliott] #743238
07/26/18 3:19 pm
07/26/18 3:19 pm
Joined: Aug 2016
Posts: 87
UK - Bucks
Steve Wilson Offline

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Steve Wilson  Offline

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Posts: 87
UK - Bucks
Still haven't checked the oil pressure but its done about 2000 miles now and is still in one piece:-)


SJW
Re: My A70 [Re: Steve Wilson] #757216
11/26/18 8:33 pm
11/26/18 8:33 pm
Joined: Aug 2013
Posts: 25
England
Servodyne Offline
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Servodyne  Offline
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Joined: Aug 2013
Posts: 25
England
Hello again.
After finishing my A10 crank conversion for my A70, which turned out rather better than expected, Typically I've now found a modified A70 crank less flywheel. The timing side journal appears to have been machined down to fit the A10 bush (1.375") and the end of the timing side shaft reduced to just under 12mm presumably to fit an end feed oil seal. The trouble is, the timing side left hand thread is now no longer long enough for the lock nut and washer. As I want to return the crank to something like standard the two options I've come up with, involve either welding up the reduced shaft and restoring the left hand thread or drill and tap the end of the crank with a left hand thread to provide a locking bolt. I would then sleeve the timing side journal using a needle roller inner sleeve 1.5" x 1.25" x 1" long as I did with the A10 crank. This would enable the use of a standard bush which I prefer to the needle roller conversion.

Two questions spring to mind;

Does anyone know why the section of the timing side shaft with the left hand thread is 1/4" longer on the A70 compared with an A65 or A10?

Is it possible to modify a late A65 flywheel with the big end cutaways to fit an A70?


1957 BSA A10 Spitfire
1971 BSA A65 Firebird
1971 BSA A70 Lightning
1975 Norton Commando
1961 Norton 99
Re: My A70 [Re: Ray Elliott] #757310
11/27/18 4:19 pm
11/27/18 4:19 pm
Joined: May 2013
Posts: 5,128
Rotherham - S. Yorkshire
Allan Gill Offline

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Allan Gill  Offline

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Rotherham - S. Yorkshire
Some A65's had the same cutaways on the flywheel so I would say yes, providing it fits on the crank, it can be machined.

I'd be interested to see your photos of the A10 crank conversion, Im going to fit an A10 crank to one of the A65 motors (79mm pistons for 830cc) I'd like to see how you worked around being able to fit the alternator, Im also looking at using another Bob Newby Belt drive (which in turn pushes the alternator outboard a little)


beerchug
Re: My A70 [Re: Ray Elliott] #757350
11/27/18 11:50 pm
11/27/18 11:50 pm
Joined: Jan 2014
Posts: 4,164
Aus
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NickL Offline
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NickL  Offline
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I found the most awkward part of sleeving the crank main with a needle inner was cutting the anulus.
The a10 crank also has a larger drive side journal i think, which has to be turned to 1-1/8in.
The current a10 one i'm doing is going to be an end fed needle job as there's not too much difference in work involved.

The a65 that had the funny/a70 main conversion is going very well, just did the 500 mile service on it. Very quiet engine, runs like an a10, lovely.

Last edited by NickL; 11/27/18 11:55 pm.

No-one expects the Spanish Inquisition................
Bring in the 'Comfy Chair'
Re: My A70 [Re: Ray Elliott] #757404
11/28/18 11:42 am
11/28/18 11:42 am
Joined: Aug 2013
Posts: 25
England
Servodyne Offline
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Servodyne  Offline
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Joined: Aug 2013
Posts: 25
England
The late A65 flywheel cutaways or 40mm whereas the A70 is guesstimated at around 33mm looking at various pictures I've seen of them. My A10 flywheel was slimmed down to 35mm to get me in the right ball park when I had the crank balanced at SRM. They 'only' drilled two holes in it so it couldn't have been far out.
My latest problem with fitting a late A65 flywheel to an A70 crank is that the A65 ID is around 122mm and the A70 OD is around 131mm. I don't really want to start machining only to make it unusable for both cranks. I would imagine the relief on the flywheel to allow it to slip over the big ends will require deepening as well.

Cutting the annulus groove on the bearing sleeve required a bit of lateral thinking as my local machine shops wouldn't do it. I simply attached two jubilee clamps leaving the desired gap in the correct position and rotated it slowly while attacking it with a high speed disc cutter with two discs fitted in stead of one. I then punched through the wall of the sleeve using a carbide burr.

I'll post some photos of the A10/A70 crank conversion is a new thread


1957 BSA A10 Spitfire
1971 BSA A65 Firebird
1971 BSA A70 Lightning
1975 Norton Commando
1961 Norton 99
Re: My A70 [Re: Ray Elliott] #757407
11/28/18 12:08 pm
11/28/18 12:08 pm
Joined: Jan 2014
Posts: 4,164
Aus
N
NickL Offline
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NickL  Offline
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Aus
We put the sleeve in a lathe and mounted an air grinder in the tool post to do the groove, once the stone was dressed it worked ok.
Also used a burr for the oil hole.
I suppose a ceramic tipped tool would be ok too, but we hadn't got one................

The very late A65 flywheels are fully scalloped more like a triumph. I hadn't thought about the ID though, that's a bit of a pain.


No-one expects the Spanish Inquisition................
Bring in the 'Comfy Chair'
Re: My A70 [Re: Ray Elliott] #757433
11/28/18 5:10 pm
11/28/18 5:10 pm
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 3,902
ca, us
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DMadigan Offline
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ca, us
A body grinder in the tool post works well also. I used it to cut a needle bearing inner sleeve to size. Handy for removing the chrome from discs, especially ones with holes in them.
EDM works very well for drilling holes in hardened steel.

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