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Re: My A70 [Re: Ray Elliott] #719156
12/17/17 9:31 pm
12/17/17 9:31 pm
Joined: Jun 2013
Posts: 111
Texas, USA
R
Ray Elliott Offline OP
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Ray Elliott  Offline OP
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Texas, USA
I have assembled pictures on Google of the crankcase recess, thrust washer, shims, crank, bushing, pinion, some before & after disassembly.

Anyone wanting me to share them please PM with an email address & I'll share them. All in all it's rather simple. Another of those "why didn't they do this earlier?" issues.

Before I assemble again I'm going to turn a spacer the width of the pinion. Not having to install, remove the pinion a few times will making shimming a quick, simple job.


Ray Elliott
---
A65, A70, A75, T120, T140, T150, T160
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Re: My A70 [Re: Ray Elliott] #719158
12/17/17 9:38 pm
12/17/17 9:38 pm
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Posts: 111
Texas, USA
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Ray Elliott Offline OP
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Or just click this link. Login with any Google account & request a share. I'll approve right away.

https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1bOUpStLgNLkD1AFkDuF89NuM6zjBR68l?usp=sharing


Ray Elliott
---
A65, A70, A75, T120, T140, T150, T160
Re: My A70 [Re: Ray Elliott] #719166
12/17/17 10:28 pm
12/17/17 10:28 pm
Joined: May 2013
Posts: 5,560
West Yorkshire
Allan Gill Offline

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Sent a request Ray.


beerchug
Re: My A70 [Re: Steve Wilson] #719225
12/18/17 1:20 pm
12/18/17 1:20 pm
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Steve Wilson Offline
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OK - Think I found it and ordered one. Should be a late christmas present :-)


SJW
Re: My A70 [Re: Steve Wilson] #719232
12/18/17 1:45 pm
12/18/17 1:45 pm
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Texas, USA
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Ray Elliott Offline OP
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Pinion, thrust washer or both? I'd like a spare thrust washer should you find a stock!

Originally Posted by Steve Wilson
OK - Think I found it and ordered one. Should be a late christmas present :-)



Ray Elliott
---
A65, A70, A75, T120, T140, T150, T160
Re: My A70 [Re: Ray Elliott] #719310
12/18/17 11:22 pm
12/18/17 11:22 pm
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Steve Wilson Offline
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Just the Pinion. I'm having a thrust washer made - could get a price for another but I think it was about 50 quid to make harden and grind.


SJW
Re: My A70 [Re: Ray Elliott] #719313
12/18/17 11:31 pm
12/18/17 11:31 pm
Joined: May 2013
Posts: 5,560
West Yorkshire
Allan Gill Offline

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West Yorkshire
Thanks for the viewing of the photos, the shims look interesting, as though they are bigger than the OD of the shaft and also smaller than the ID of the bush, so I’m assuming these self centre? Or is it an optical illusion?


beerchug
Re: My A70 [Re: Allan Gill] #719325
12/19/17 1:21 am
12/19/17 1:21 am
Joined: Jun 2013
Posts: 111
Texas, USA
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Ray Elliott Offline OP
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Texas, USA
Allan, you're right, it's not an optical illusion. The shim ID is about 20.5mm, larger than the washer ID. The OD 36.5mm so smaller than the the diameter of the crankshaft bush journal. I assume that the shims turn with the crank as the inside of the washer shines brightly in the shape of the shim. The inner of the washer has a ground finish where the outside has machining marks. If accidentally reversed the shims would likely disappear quickly.

Originally Posted by Allan Gill
Thanks for the viewing of the photos, the shims look interesting, as though they are bigger than the OD of the shaft and also smaller than the ID of the bush, so I’m assuming these self centre? Or is it an optical illusion?


Ray Elliott
---
A65, A70, A75, T120, T140, T150, T160
Re: My A70 [Re: Ray Elliott] #723725
01/30/18 9:44 am
01/30/18 9:44 am
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Steve Wilson Offline
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That looks like about the same size as Classic Mini balljoint shims

Last edited by Steve Wilson; 01/30/18 9:45 am. Reason: Spelling mistake

SJW
Re: My A70 [Re: ferretjuggler] #723812
01/31/18 3:43 am
01/31/18 3:43 am
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 4,757
Owego, NY, USA
Mark Z Online content
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Owego, NY, USA
Originally Posted by ferretjuggler
The roller appeared shortly after BSA started to tune up these engines.
Were the ball races failing early, or was it just a precaution ?


Just one man's half-educated opinion: I think much of the engine development at that time was largely driven by the competition market. In the States, the predominance of competition for A65s centered around flattrack racing, where you would take an A65, stroke it to 750cc, install a racing cam and hardened or aftermarket crank, port and polish the head, install high-comp pistons and 32mm carbs, etc. etc. and then take it out on the track and beat the bejesus out of it.

Like Alan, I'm of the opinion that the DS ball bearing main is adequate for "normal road use".






Mark Z

'65(lower)/'66(upper, wheels, front end, controls)/'67(seat, exhaust, fuel tank, headlamp)/'70(frame) A65 Bitsa.
Re: My A70 [Re: Ray Elliott] #725544
02/14/18 10:44 am
02/14/18 10:44 am
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UK - Bucks
Steve Wilson Offline
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Ray. Do you have any idea what the thrust washer is made of? I'm wondering if it is Hardened or if a plain steel would do the job. If it didn't need hardening and subsequent grinding flat it would be a lot cheaper to make
Cheers
Steve


SJW
Re: My A70 [Re: Steve Wilson] #725545
02/14/18 10:45 am
02/14/18 10:45 am
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Steve Wilson Offline
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Unfortunately I've checked and Mini Balljoint shims are just too big - about 38mm OD


SJW
Re: My A70 [Re: Ray Elliott] #725546
02/14/18 10:47 am
02/14/18 10:47 am
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Steve Wilson Offline
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Crank and Crankcases are back with the machinist for the A70 conversion mods. Likely to be a couple of weeks before he can get onto it but looking forward to the results.


SJW
Re: My A70 [Re: Ray Elliott] #725554
02/14/18 1:28 pm
02/14/18 1:28 pm
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Steve Wilson Offline
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[Linked Image]
Trial post - The BSA before open heart surgery!

Last edited by Steve Wilson; 02/14/18 1:30 pm.

SJW
Re: My A70 [Re: NickL] #725696
02/15/18 3:02 pm
02/15/18 3:02 pm
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Steve Wilson Offline
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Well the front tyre is stock size I think - probably just the photo perspective. If I can get away with a non hardened washer that's good - will be cheaper (Or I can make it myself) shims not sure about making them neatly Just bought some online at huge expense! (£6 for a thin washer!!)
Cheers
Steve


SJW
Re: My A70 [Re: Ray Elliott] #725712
02/15/18 5:20 pm
02/15/18 5:20 pm
Joined: Jan 2004
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DMadigan Offline
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You can probably find a needle thrust race the right size. Already hardened and ground.

Re: My A70 [Re: Ray Elliott] #725811
02/16/18 3:47 pm
02/16/18 3:47 pm
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DMadigan Offline
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Torrington has just thrust washers. What dimensions are needed? From above, I.D. > 20.5mm, O.D. < 36.5mm. The TR(A/B/C/D)-1423 are 22.22mm I.D., 36.5mm O.D., A: 0.031", B:0.062", C:0.093", D:0.125" thick.

Re: My A70 [Re: Ray Elliott] #725884
02/17/18 5:16 am
02/17/18 5:16 am
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DMadigan Offline
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There is also valve seat shims, come in 0.005" increments from 0.010". I am not familiar with the setup so advice might be wildly off the mark.

Re: My A70 [Re: Ray Elliott] #725924
02/17/18 6:49 pm
02/17/18 6:49 pm
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DMadigan Offline
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The whole arrangement looks a bit out of wack. I would not put the shims between the thrust washer and crank because the thrust washer should take the thrust, not the shim. The A65 arrangement has the shims clamped between the crank and inner roller race. I would put the shim between the pinion gear and thrust washer or thrust washer and crank as appropriate.
Then, I would make two half bushes with flange thrust faces inserted from each side with an appropriate gap in between to feed the oil into the bushes and crank. The current arrangement has the shim wearing against the edge of the timing bush and a plain steel shim will wear quicker. A thin shim is more prone to tearing than a thrust washer.

Re: My A70 [Re: Ray Elliott] #725938
02/17/18 10:41 pm
02/17/18 10:41 pm
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Steve Wilson Offline
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OK There seems to be some misunderstanding of what's going on here.
Talking specifically about the A70 arrangement. The shim(s) are trapped between the thrust washer and crank and do not touch the timing side bush.
Crank, shims and thrust washer all revolve together. The shims just adjust the gap/float available across the timing side bush
Did that make sense?
The shims NickL is showing are very similar to the ones I have purchased. In my case I am aiming to make the crank 0.25mm shorter than the Bush and use a 0.3mm shim to give 0.05mm float
I've drawn the stuff up in 3D cad When I have reassembled the engine and proved it works I can publish the 'recipe' for others to follow as they see fit.
Cheers
Steve


SJW
Re: My A70 [Re: Ray Elliott] #725940
02/17/18 10:50 pm
02/17/18 10:50 pm
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DMadigan Offline
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Yes, except it appears that there is no thrust face on the outside other than the end of the steel backed bronze bush, correct?

Re: My A70 [Re: Ray Elliott] #725945
02/17/18 11:05 pm
02/17/18 11:05 pm
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England
Servodyne Offline
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Interesting thread.
I'm current in the process of having an A10 crank modified to fit into my A70 cases, (unless someone out there has got a spare A70 crank). I want to retain the timing side bush as I feel that the combination of having an outboard thrust washer helping to maintain oil pressure coupled with a cartridge oil filter, I should get decent longevity out of the engine. Also it's one of the defining differences to the A65.

I'm using the inner race of a needle roller bearing (IRB2014 Imperial Inner Race 1-1/4x1-1/2x22.475) as a sleeve to bring the A10 timing side journal up to the 1.5" dia of the A70 bush. Due to the A10 journal being longer than the A70, my thrust washer will fit over the end of the the journal and effectively clamp the new sleeve bearing onto the crankshaft by the worm drive pinion nut. I don't envisage using any shims if I can get the machining of the bang on, or I'll make a bespoke inner thrust bearing to accommodate the difference.

The question is what is the factory recommend end float for the A70 configuration? I would have thought it may be covered in a service bulletin, but I have yet to find it mentioned anywhere.

With a standard late A65, the 1.5 to 3 thou float would increase as the engine gets up to temp and the crankcases expand. With an A70 set up, I would envisage that the end float would actually decrease and the material around the timing side bush expands, therefore 1.5 thou might not be enough.



1957 BSA A10 Spitfire
1971 BSA A65 Firebird
1971 BSA A70 Lightning
1975 Norton Commando
1961 Norton 99
Re: My A70 [Re: Ray Elliott] #725974
02/18/18 5:02 am
02/18/18 5:02 am
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DMadigan Offline
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I got that the timing bush is shorter and recessed into the case. So the outer thrust washer is running on the aluminum case (and maybe the end of the timing bush)? That was what I objected to. If two flanged bushes were used for the crank (with the outer flange in the case recess), all the shimming would be on the outer thrust washer and it would run against a proper bearing (meaning replaceable if needed).
I am not clear on why the drive side shimming is needed. That controls the crank movement to the left and the thrust flange of the timing bush controls the right.

Re: My A70 [Re: NickL] #726007
02/18/18 10:11 am
02/18/18 10:11 am
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England
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Originally Posted by NickL
3-4 thou on the timing side 1.5-3 drive side. (if you are using a roller drive side.


I'm with you on the 3 - 4 thou on the timing side, but what's the point of shimming the drive side also to 1.5 - 3 thou? The sectional view in the parts catalogue doesn't show any shims on the drive side.



1957 BSA A10 Spitfire
1971 BSA A65 Firebird
1971 BSA A70 Lightning
1975 Norton Commando
1961 Norton 99
Re: My A70 [Re: Ray Elliott] #726060
02/18/18 7:33 pm
02/18/18 7:33 pm
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Steve Wilson Offline
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DMadigan
Yes you are correct and that's what BSA did. In my case I am having a solid bronze bush made up so the thrust washer will bear against that - Its quite thick so I'm OK with that. I know it will touch the Aluminium casing as well but I don't think that will cause a problem. It's certainly better than using the main roller bearing as the end stop in that direction which is what happens normally :-)


SJW
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