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Seeking Panther Wisdom #575502
12/08/14 1:52 am
12/08/14 1:52 am
Joined: Oct 2014
Posts: 73
Midwest, United States
kyrbz Offline OP
BritBike Forum member
kyrbz  Offline OP
BritBike Forum member

Joined: Oct 2014
Posts: 73
Midwest, United States
My winter project this year is restoring a 1958 Panther M75. Really just starting to get going on it. One of the first things perplexing me is I think the bike may have an incorrect hub on the rear. All of the Panther M75's I've seen pictures of have a have a right angle speedo drive on the rear hub below the axle. The bike I'm restoring had no speedometer cable and I see no spot for a speedo drive on the rear hub. Also all the Panther 75 photos I've seen, the rear hub is all steel. My bike has an aluminum ribbed hub similar to the front hub, which leads me to believe my bike may have something other than a Panther hub on the rear. I know there were minor changes from year to year, just wondering if anybody could confirm whether this is a Panther hub on the rear of my bike.

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]
Most Panther 75 photo's I've seen have the brake rod above the swing arm with the speedo drive below the axle. There appear to be no holes on my hub that could accommodate a speedo drive. Also, the number on the brake lever doesn't correspond to the number in the parts manual I have (although my parts manual is for older 65/75's than mine).

[Linked Image]


The following pics are screen grabs showing the rear hub, speedo drive, and brake arm the way I'm thinking my bike should be.
[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

I guess worse case scenario I could try to use a front wheel speedo drive to have a functional speedo, but I tend to try to do fairly "correct" restorations when possible. Any input would be greatly appreciated.

BZ




Last edited by kyrbz; 12/08/14 2:04 am.

BZ
58' Panther M75
http://bzisettas.blogspot.com/
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Re: Seeking Panther Wisdom [Re: kyrbz] #575514
12/08/14 5:41 am
12/08/14 5:41 am
Joined: Jun 2013
Posts: 80
Yorkshire
K
Keith Offline
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Keith  Offline
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K

Joined: Jun 2013
Posts: 80
Yorkshire
Hi,

That looks like a correct 'Panther' hub and brake plate for a 58 bike to me. Panther started offering these alloy hubs as an option in 55.

Keith.

Re: Seeking Panther Wisdom [Re: kyrbz] #575547
12/08/14 10:58 am
12/08/14 10:58 am
Joined: Oct 2014
Posts: 73
Midwest, United States
kyrbz Offline OP
BritBike Forum member
kyrbz  Offline OP
BritBike Forum member

Joined: Oct 2014
Posts: 73
Midwest, United States
Thanks for the info. Do you happen to know what type of speedo drive Panther's w/ the alloy hub would have used?

BZ


BZ
58' Panther M75
http://bzisettas.blogspot.com/
Re: Seeking Panther Wisdom [Re: kyrbz] #575576
12/08/14 4:23 pm
12/08/14 4:23 pm
Joined: Jul 2014
Posts: 350
UK
C
craig Offline
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craig  Offline
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C

Joined: Jul 2014
Posts: 350
UK
looks a mess to me , whats going one with the rear brake rod ? its a bit late a panther for me but im surprised and amazed they did such a thing , if its correct its a model i shall avoid

Re: Seeking Panther Wisdom [Re: kyrbz] #575585
12/08/14 5:14 pm
12/08/14 5:14 pm
Joined: Aug 2013
Posts: 492
Australia
D
downhere Offline
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downhere  Offline
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D

Joined: Aug 2013
Posts: 492
Australia
Show a picture of the other side, maybe some models had the drive on the axle like other british bikes?

Re: Seeking Panther Wisdom [Re: downhere] #575606
12/08/14 7:57 pm
12/08/14 7:57 pm
Joined: Oct 2014
Posts: 73
Midwest, United States
kyrbz Offline OP
BritBike Forum member
kyrbz  Offline OP
BritBike Forum member

Joined: Oct 2014
Posts: 73
Midwest, United States
Originally Posted by downhere
Show a picture of the other side, maybe some models had the drive on the axle like other british bikes?


[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

BZ


BZ
58' Panther M75
http://bzisettas.blogspot.com/
Re: Seeking Panther Wisdom [Re: craig] #575609
12/08/14 8:36 pm
12/08/14 8:36 pm
Joined: Oct 2014
Posts: 73
Midwest, United States
kyrbz Offline OP
BritBike Forum member
kyrbz  Offline OP
BritBike Forum member

Joined: Oct 2014
Posts: 73
Midwest, United States
Originally Posted by craig
looks a mess to me , whats going one with the rear brake rod ? its a bit late a panther for me but im surprised and amazed they did such a thing , if its correct its a model i shall avoid


Yes, somebody has bent the brake rod like a pretzel. I'll be making a new one. Like many unrestored 50+ year old bike, I've been running into poor repairs, stripped threads, etc.....

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]
Here's the foot pegs removed. You can see one has been pretty crudely repaired.

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]
I still need to semi flatten the tube, but hopefully my repair looks a little better.

One of the battery clamp rods was missing and a piece of 1/4"-20 all thread had been jammed in the 1/4"-26 threads of the battery tray, so I made a couple of new ones.

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]
The end of my rods aren't threaded yet. This is my first Brit bike restoration so I'm still needing to acquire a few things like Whitworth tap and dies, and some Whitworth heli-coil kits.

Hopefully in the next week or so, I'll get the Panther up on it's work table and start getting it disassembled and really get going on the resto.

BZ





BZ
58' Panther M75
http://bzisettas.blogspot.com/
Re: Seeking Panther Wisdom [Re: kyrbz] #575659
12/09/14 5:24 am
12/09/14 5:24 am
Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 9,890
Scotland
kommando Offline

BritBike Forum member
kommando  Offline

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Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 9,890
Scotland
The angle of the brake lever says that mess is a DPO induced mess and the shoes are very undersize. Instead of fitting new shoes they instead have been bending the rod to keep it in adjustment.

Hold fire on the whitworth taps and dies until you get in further, the nuts and bolts will have whitworth sized heads but the threads will be cycle, which is usually 26tpi with an option for 20tpi on the larger sizes. Cycle threads are deliberately 26tpi to ensure good clamping forces so nuts do not come loose.

As Downhere suggested it looks like there is a speedo drive on the opposite side, its currently got a cover on which will come off once the axle nut is undone.

Last edited by kommando; 12/09/14 5:31 am.
Re: Seeking Panther Wisdom [Re: kyrbz] #575714
12/09/14 3:30 pm
12/09/14 3:30 pm
Joined: Oct 2014
Posts: 73
Midwest, United States
kyrbz Offline OP
BritBike Forum member
kyrbz  Offline OP
BritBike Forum member

Joined: Oct 2014
Posts: 73
Midwest, United States
Thanks Kommando and Downhere. It certainly looks like there would be room to accommodate a speedo drive on the right side of the hub.

The little bit of work I've done on the bike, I've run into BSC, BSF, and BSW threads. I was looking at the tap/die kit that British Tools sells for $315.00 that has an assortment of all 3 of those threads. I was also looking at the British made tap and die sets that www.tap-die.com sell. Either way it's quite a chunk of change, and that's not including the heli-coils I'll need. I'm going to have to look for another Brit bike to restore to justify all the outlay on tools I've spent.

BZ


BZ
58' Panther M75
http://bzisettas.blogspot.com/
Re: Seeking Panther Wisdom [Re: kyrbz] #576700
12/16/14 1:30 pm
12/16/14 1:30 pm
Joined: Oct 2014
Posts: 73
Midwest, United States
kyrbz Offline OP
BritBike Forum member
kyrbz  Offline OP
BritBike Forum member

Joined: Oct 2014
Posts: 73
Midwest, United States
[Linked Image]
Still trying to figure out if my Panther has the correct Panther hub on it. Pulled the rear wheel off to have a look at the inside of the hub.


[Linked Image]
Inside the drum has a gear for a speedo drive like other Panther's I've seen photos of.


[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]
Now I'm thinking it might be a Panther hub, but the brake plate has no spot for a speedo drive, so possibly an incorrect brake plate.

BZ

Last edited by kyrbz; 12/16/14 1:30 pm.

BZ
58' Panther M75
http://bzisettas.blogspot.com/
Re: Seeking Panther Wisdom [Re: kyrbz] #576707
12/16/14 1:50 pm
12/16/14 1:50 pm
Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 9,890
Scotland
kommando Offline

BritBike Forum member
kommando  Offline

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Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 9,890
Scotland
That rear brake plate looks very like the 6" C15/B40/B44 BSA rear brake, the sprocket looks very home made in how its attached, bolted on and the heads of the bolts looking very worn from rubbing. What is the brake diameter ?

Re: Seeking Panther Wisdom [Re: kommando] #576710
12/16/14 2:07 pm
12/16/14 2:07 pm
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 2,818
Ohio
R
Rickman Offline
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Rickman  Offline
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R

Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 2,818
Ohio
Also,
Is it the pic or what?

Doesn't the drive gear in the hub look bad???

Re: Seeking Panther Wisdom [Re: kyrbz] #576728
12/16/14 4:17 pm
12/16/14 4:17 pm
Joined: Aug 2013
Posts: 492
Australia
D
downhere Offline
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downhere  Offline
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D

Joined: Aug 2013
Posts: 492
Australia
You've got a right old mixture there!

Re: Seeking Panther Wisdom [Re: kyrbz] #576784
12/17/14 12:27 am
12/17/14 12:27 am
Joined: Oct 2014
Posts: 73
Midwest, United States
kyrbz Offline OP
BritBike Forum member
kyrbz  Offline OP
BritBike Forum member

Joined: Oct 2014
Posts: 73
Midwest, United States
Kommando, you nailed it. Underneath the brake shoes, the brake plate was stamped "BSA 40-6025", and it is a 6" drum. Upon further inspection, I believe the hub is a Panther hub. The speedo gear is stamped "P34139/1 441 RH" which corresponds with the Panther parts manual I have. As Rickman mentioned, the teeth of the speedo gear are messed up. It looks like somebody squeezed it really hard with something probably trying to get it off and bent the teeth.

Does anybody happen to know if the "RH" stamping on the speedo gear would be referring to the threads of the gear or does it have to do with the rotation of the speedo drive? I can't see enough threads to tell if its LH or RH. I haven't had any luck getting the gear off. Soaked it in Kroil tonight and I'll give it another shot later.

Something else I was wondering. I'm coming up with 9/16" x 20tpi threads on the axel. The axel looks like the illustration in my parts manual. Is that a thread size that was used on Brit bikes?

BZ

Last edited by kyrbz; 12/17/14 12:38 am.

BZ
58' Panther M75
http://bzisettas.blogspot.com/
Re: Seeking Panther Wisdom [Re: kyrbz] #576798
12/17/14 6:43 am
12/17/14 6:43 am
Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 9,890
Scotland
kommando Offline

BritBike Forum member
kommando  Offline

BritBike Forum member

Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 9,890
Scotland
Cycle Thread is not only 26TPI, 7/16th and above there is the option for 20TPI so its a cycle thread. You find the 20TPI on crank nuts and other high torque items like axle spindles. There are some UNEF 20TPI threads which I have used as cheaper options for helicoils and taps, the thread angle is the same with slight differences in the peak and trough, BSA and Triumph used this same ruse when they changed from cycle to UNF in the late 60's.

Re: Seeking Panther Wisdom [Re: kyrbz] #576856
12/17/14 5:41 pm
12/17/14 5:41 pm
Joined: Aug 2013
Posts: 492
Australia
D
downhere Offline
BritBike Forum member
downhere  Offline
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D

Joined: Aug 2013
Posts: 492
Australia
The RH is for fitting to the left side of the wheel whereas if it was for fitting to the right hand side of a hub it would be a left hand thread. Self tightening and all that. Some single nortons apparently have brake hubs left and right handed.


Moderated by  kommando 

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