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New 5 speed cluster for BSA A65
#559263 08/21/14 4:39 am
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New 5 speed gear cluster for the BSA A65. Based on original gear cluster technology,
xxxxxxxxx
and has also been further enhanced to incorporate many of the design benefits gained by their experience in the world of international moto-cross with BSA large bore single cylinders engines.

Along with suitable spaced ratios of 1st 2.222:1, 2nd 1.597:1, 3rd 1.296:1, 4th 1.111:1 and 5th 1:1. Other benefits include:
a)Splined mainshaft with an adapter to suit the BSA clutch. No longer will you need to worry about the key shearing or having to torque the clutch center nut up to 75 ft lbs.
b)All meshing gear dogs are back cut for positive engagement, and no longer rely on the cam plate and selectors to maintain engagement.
c)Final drive sprocket is supported on both sides by bearing, while the drive gear is running on needle roller bearings.
d)All rolling gears run on needle roller bearing, no longer are gears running on brass bushes.

The new 5 speed gear cluster and selector system comes complete with clutch center adapter and new bearing mounted clutch back plate to support both sides of the final drive sprocket. xxxxxx

To go with a 5 speed cluster. xxxxxxx Ltd are also developing a new light weight clutch. That will offer a more effective clutch, with lighter action and superior chain alignment.

xxxxx

Regards

John

Last edited by Morgan aka Admin; 09/24/16 7:52 am.
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Re: New 5 speed cluster for BSA A65
JER.Hill #559266 08/21/14 5:05 am
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John, a big congrats for getting this off the ground. :bigt


Now let’s all have a beer beerchug

68’ A65 Lightning “clubman”
71’ A65 823 Thunderbolt (undergoing restoration)
67’ D10 sportsman (undergoing restoration)
68’ D14 trials (undergoing transformation)

Re: New 5 speed cluster for BSA A65
JER.Hill #559273 08/21/14 7:32 am
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If any one can get this off the ground its John, more power to your elbow sir.
As one of the first recipients of the alloy barrel conversion I can vouch for Johns high quality and well thought through approach to engineering solutions for these old twins.
I may even be the first to get one of the big bores up and running but thats a different thread.

Now I need to think up an excuse to get one of those conversions. My 71 OIF has a very sweet box which works so well I can select neutral at standstill when warm.
However the NorBSA has issues with the clutch. hmmm.

Ive had some interesting chats with John over the phone around this topic, I know how much thought and research he has done already, for most of us A65 owners this is too good an opportunity to be missed, I imagine this would be a boon to any would be classic racers out there.

Best of luck with this for the future John.


71 Devimead, John Hill, John Holmes A65 750
56 Norbsa 68 Longstroke A65
Cagiva Raptor 650
MZ TS 250
The poster formerly known as Pod
Re: New 5 speed cluster for BSA A65
JER.Hill #559484 08/22/14 7:16 am
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I'd love one of these. What excellent ratios, this sounds such a great thing for A65 owners. It makes such a difference when a gearbox is helping a motor stay in its good rpm zone. Like Gavin, I have C/R 1st and 2nd in my A65 which makes a big improvement, but this sort of 5speed would be, yea, what Nick says. An 80 x 74 744 A65 with these ratios could be such a sweet and potent thing.


mark
Re: New 5 speed cluster for BSA A65
JER.Hill #559522 08/22/14 10:34 am
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Here is a comparison of the stock ratios, Quaife's and JHill's:
[Linked Image]

Re: New 5 speed cluster for BSA A65
JER.Hill #559525 08/22/14 10:39 am
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Was there any reason not to make 5th "just a tad" taller?


GrandPaul (does not use emoticons)
Author of the book "Old Bikes"
Too many bikes to list, mostly Triumph & Norton, a BSA, & some Japanese
"The Iron in your blood should be Vintage"
Re: New 5 speed cluster for BSA A65
JER.Hill #559543 08/22/14 12:31 pm
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You mean less than 1:1? It would be inefficient since the high gear would always be turning relative to the mainshaft. Better to make the other four higher and lower the engine/wheel ratio.

Re: New 5 speed cluster for BSA A65
JER.Hill #559727 08/23/14 10:18 am
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I don't know enough to fully understand this, but I was thinking you could have an "overdrive" ratio for high speed touring...


GrandPaul (does not use emoticons)
Author of the book "Old Bikes"
Too many bikes to list, mostly Triumph & Norton, a BSA, & some Japanese
"The Iron in your blood should be Vintage"
Re: New 5 speed cluster for BSA A65
JER.Hill #559759 08/23/14 2:14 pm
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Wouldn't that only work where one shaft is input and the other shaft is output? Like on a Japanese bike??


Now let’s all have a beer beerchug

68’ A65 Lightning “clubman”
71’ A65 823 Thunderbolt (undergoing restoration)
67’ D10 sportsman (undergoing restoration)
68’ D14 trials (undergoing transformation)

Re: New 5 speed cluster for BSA A65
JER.Hill #559761 08/23/14 2:21 pm
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Looking at the ratios, there is a clear improvement over the Quaife 'box on the 4th - 5th ratio step of 10% rather than 19% but 1st gear looks quite high for ordinary road use.

The total reduction on the std. BSA 'box is 60% (50% for CR) with the Quaife at a 56% an John Hill's at 55%.

Wouldn't a lower 1st be better if possible?


BSA: '71 B175; '68 B25; '71 A65; '71 A75
Triumph: '87 T140; '72 T150v
Re: New 5 speed cluster for BSA A65
JER.Hill #559763 08/23/14 2:24 pm
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High gear is 1 to 1 where you lock the sleeve gear to the main shaft for top gear.

Re: New 5 speed cluster for BSA A65
kommando #559765 08/23/14 2:35 pm
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Originally Posted by kommando
High gear is 1 to 1 where you lock the sleeve gear to the main shaft for top gear.


This means there is a minimum of power lost in this mode.

However, it does mean that more power is lost through each of the other other 4 ratios, which each have to go through 2 sets of gears.

When you don't have a 1:1 ratio top this usually means that each gear is driving through just a single pair of gears.


BSA: '71 B175; '68 B25; '71 A65; '71 A75
Triumph: '87 T140; '72 T150v
Re: New 5 speed cluster for BSA A65
JER.Hill #559774 08/23/14 3:03 pm
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Will a higher first gear mean that the rider will have to "slip" the clutch. as Gold Star
riders have to do?

If a five-speed gearbox is used for higher performance, should we expect having to slip the clutch
as part of the deal?

If this means I would have to shift into fifth gear at 70 MPH to pass some Harley rider, I'm willing to put up with it.

Re: New 5 speed cluster for BSA A65
Irish Swede #559790 08/23/14 4:41 pm
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Originally Posted by Irish Swede

If this means I would have to shift into fifth gear at 70 MPH to pass some Harley rider, I'm willing to put up with it.


should be possible in 4th and replace "some" with "all"

regards A

Last edited by lemans; 08/23/14 4:41 pm.
Re: New 5 speed cluster for BSA A65
JER.Hill #559892 08/24/14 10:19 am
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5-speed cluster; why these ratios would be so nice.
I did a little calculating. This is using 20t 38t final drive sprockets with an envisaged 744 A65 hotrod(the final drive ratio we have used with a 650cc 90deg A65 engine in an RGV chassis.) The effect is the same with a different final drive ratio.
Using a theoretical motor that makes peak power at
7800 or above. This example uses 7800 as a change point, changing at lower RPM the effect is still much the same.
Its important to realize the faster you go the more HP you use to maintain the speed.
So the first to second change can be the widest because the thing will not be using
much HP to maintain 70MPH and hitting second at 5606RPM will be in good
HP with lots to spare even if it has an extra twenty or thirty HP beyond 7000. By
4th gear though speed is up and the extra HP left over to accelerate the thing will be getting more scarce, (riders notice the gap between 2nd and 3rd on the std box because at lower RPM it can drop you out of the power)however going into 5th with the 5speed only drops RPM back to 7020, into an area closer to where the most power is produced and where the best chance is to have some extra HP available to accelerate the thing a bit more. If it went into top and revs dropped to 5606RPM it may not even have sufficient power to maintain the speed.

Gear ratio MPH at 7800RPM in gears
1st Gear 2.222 From 1st @ 7800 68.98
2nd Gear 1.597 Into 2nd @5606 95.98
3rd Gear 1.296 Into 3rd @6330 118.26
4th Gear 1.111 Into 4th @6686 137.97
5th Gear 1.000 Into 5th @ 7020 153.30

Original A65 ratios for 4-speed cluster
Ratio MPH at 7800 in gears
2.513 From 1st 7800 61.01
1.599 Into 2nd 4964 95.87
1.145 Into 3rd 5585 133.91
1.000 Into 4th 6813 153.30


Last edited by Mark Parker; 08/24/14 10:40 am.

mark
Re: New 5 speed cluster for BSA A65
JER.Hill #559922 08/24/14 2:05 pm
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DD - ? Direct gearboxes drive through two sets of gears for everything except top gear which locks the high gear to the input shaft. It could be rearranged so 4th is 1:1 and 5th overdrive.
Mark, I have the standard 4 speed 2nd as 23/36 (1.5294) which gives 100.23 MPH.

Re: New 5 speed cluster for BSA A65
JER.Hill #560033 08/25/14 5:20 am
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Dave 22/26, same gears as 3rd in a std A65 4speed. Of BSA 4speed configurations std with C/R 1st and 2nd seems to work best. Easy to see why its nicer than the std A65.

4speed with C/R 1st and 2nd
Ratio MPH at 7800 in gears
2.029 from 1st 7800 75
1.470 into 2nd 5652 104
1.145 into 3rd 6072 133
1.000 into 4th 6813 153


mark
Re: New 5 speed cluster for BSA A65
JER.Hill #560972 08/31/14 2:16 am
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Hi

One thing I forgot to mention in the original post. Is that this system is only good for the later models with the speedo drive working from the rear wheel. It can't work on the early models where the speedo drive is off the gearbox.

regards

John

Re: New 5 speed cluster for BSA A65
JER.Hill #561338 09/02/14 9:03 am
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doesn't the speedo work with the new 5-speed-box

or

doesn't the 5-speed-box work with the speedo position cases

I don't mind using a bike speedo if it saves me from changing engine cases

regards Anne

Re: New 5 speed cluster for BSA A65
lemans #561386 09/02/14 1:55 pm
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Hi Anne

The 5 speed cluster fits the cases, its just that I have shortened the layshaft, this was where the early speedo drive was attached to. As you said you can use a bicycle speedo and just blank off the casing.

Hope that explains it.

regards

John

Re: New 5 speed cluster for BSA A65
JER.Hill #561400 09/02/14 3:36 pm
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clear, very clear. will revert to rear wheel speedo
regards A

Re: New 5 speed cluster for BSA A65
lemans #585742 02/15/15 3:27 pm
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John, what is the status of this project?

Re: New 5 speed cluster for BSA A65
JER.Hill #585766 02/15/15 5:14 pm
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Since a new shifter cam plate will be needed for the FIVE gears, could a reversed cam plate for use with rear-set controls also be available as an option?

Re: New 5 speed cluster for BSA A65
JER.Hill #585789 02/15/15 6:20 pm
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Hi

In answer to the first question, hopefully the first batch will be ready by end of this month. Running a little later than first projected but that's how proto stuff goes. While we've not encountered any major issues, were trying to concentrate ensuring its right rather than fast and flawed.

In answer to Irish Swede. There will only be one cam plate, to do a reverse cam plate is a whole different ball game. If you want to change the shift pattern there are a few more simpler way to achieve that rather than change the cam plate and all that would entail.

Keep you all posted.

John

Re: New 5 speed cluster for BSA A65
JER.Hill #585885 02/16/15 5:28 am
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Is that like 1up 3 down? I prefer it that way too, flipping the shifter sorts that. Otherwise a set of link rods can determine which way the shifter works without altering the box.


Now let’s all have a beer beerchug

68’ A65 Lightning “clubman”
71’ A65 823 Thunderbolt (undergoing restoration)
67’ D10 sportsman (undergoing restoration)
68’ D14 trials (undergoing transformation)

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