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Rim lock or no rim lock?
#552228 07/10/14 6:40 pm
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I was wondering if people here are using the Triumph rim locks on their back tires. I am putting a new tire and they told me is alright to leave them out. It is just street use, I do not race my bike. Any advise from the Gurus? It is a 77 Bonneville.

William


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Re: Rim lock or no rim lock?
bonneville15 #552233 07/10/14 7:14 pm
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I've put maybe a dozen Brit bikes back on the road in the last few years. Not put a single rim lock back on, and have not had a single problem. I usually grind a new carriage bolt to fit the rim nice to make a fake lock bolt. Opinions differ on this.

Re: Rim lock or no rim lock?
leon bee #552260 07/10/14 10:42 pm
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that's the way I have been doing it since 1973 on dozens of Britbikes have never had one issue with omitting the rim lock.

Re: Rim lock or no rim lock?
bonneville15 #552287 07/11/14 2:23 am
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Hi William,

Ime, people don't have a problem/issue with no rim lock(s) ...

... 'til they have two rear wheel punctures, one on a wheel with rim locks and one without. eek

Assuming they survive the "without", curiously, not only do they never moan about rim locks again, many also wonder how to fit locks to rims without them. :bigt

Ime, if you fit the lock between the rim and the tape and, when fitting or removing a tyre, undo the rim lock nut just to the end of the thread, rim locks aren't any trouble ... and can be a God-send.

Hth.

Regards,

Re: Rim lock or no rim lock?
bonneville15 #552288 07/11/14 2:36 am
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You only find out how much you need rim locks when you get a puncture at speed.

As it happens this is exactly what happened to me yesterday at about 45mph.
It squirmed a couple of times and I stopped safely without any problem and the tyre was still on the rim.

The danger of not having locks is that if you brake (or even if you don't) then at some point the tyre will spin on the rim and could rip the inner tube leading to sudden deflation. When flat the tyre could then come off the rim.

I suppose it all depends on what speed you are doing and whether it even occurs to you NOT to apply the rear brake (and yes I didn't remember).

I will be putting rim locks back on. Those extra few seconds it gives you are worth it to me.

Simon

Re: Rim lock or no rim lock?
bonneville15 #552301 07/11/14 4:12 am
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My 67 still has two rim locks (called security bolts in the UK). I don't find them too difficult to deal with when changing a tyre even with the rim tape in the normal place but they do make it a bit more fiddly. A garage changed a tyre for me on a machine once and that was still ok.

It's the front tyre that worries me!

Dave

Last edited by dave jones; 07/11/14 4:12 am.
Re: Rim lock or no rim lock?
bonneville15 #552309 07/11/14 6:04 am
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To all:

Thank you very much for all your opinions. There is definitely a lot of more experience on you guys from what I have. I been riding since I was 16 and never had a punctured tire the entire time so, I can't really tell about a blow out and don't want to know. I guess I have been blessed. I will put the rims lock back on with the new tire. I do value my hide and life.

If you live down here in Tampa FL, you will have a hard time finding a shop that will do tire with rim locks. I have been turned down 3 times already. Even Harley, BMW, Ducati shops. I am so pissed. What the hell is going on??

William






ASE Automotive Master Tech.
Never regret anything in your life because at one point, that was what you wished for.
Always tell the truth, even if your voice shakes.
1977 T140V
Re: Rim lock or no rim lock?
bonneville15 #552320 07/11/14 8:58 am
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What is going on is -- the kids working in those shops have probably never seen a rim lock before. If you don't want to deal with it yourself, perhaps try a dirt bike shop?

Ray


'64 TR6R Plus some Twins from other countries (U.S., Germany, Japan)
Re: Rim lock or no rim lock?
bonneville15 #552328 07/11/14 9:37 am
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I had a rear tyre puncture when I was a teen on a 3TA and as I can hardly remember it nothing much can have happened apart from a bit of snaking. I can't remember if that bike had wheel rim locks. I don't suppose a 3TA needs them! I remember refitting the tyre with a rubber mallet. I use levers now.

The garage I went to to have the tyre changed more recently had a fitter who knew about all tyres and wheels, modern, old, car or bike so I was lucky. The only point I was making was that it was possible to do a rim lock wheel on the normal tyre machine. I would have fitted it myself but they got the tyre in and fitting was free.

dave

Last edited by dave jones; 07/11/14 9:41 am.
Re: Rim lock or no rim lock?
bonneville15 #552339 07/11/14 10:43 am
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I wasn't going to say anything but IMO William has made the right choice.

I do all my own tire changing, always have and I have never had a problem with rim locks. To me, they're just part of the job and they're so simple it baffles me when people complain about them.

I have seen the ugly side of not having them installed.

My 1967 B44 Victor Roadster came with rim locks on the rear but not on the front. I was running cheap knock off repro tires (from a known, well respected Brit Bike vendor) and suffered a slow leak at speed (approx 45 mph) on the front. I noticed a slight wobble and slipped forward on the tank to have a look. I noticed the tire was soft so I started slowing down so I could pull off the road and check it out. That's when the SHTF....one side of the bead came loose first.....then the other. All I could do was watch it happen and hold on for dear life. If you want to see what this is like......deflate your front tire....break both beads loose and then try to roll your bike around. Go ahead and try it.

Long story short.....I was going to fall....so I picked out the softest place I could and laid it down. No name man was behind me and thought I had suffered a heart attack. To be honest he was almost right.

I was up in PA on Mike G's OSMR and as soon as I got home....I replaced the tire and ADDED a brand new rim lock to that rim.

Do what you want....it's none of my business, but I'd be careful advising others to do the same just because you've been lucky for years.

Look at it this way....in the past 25 years how many times has your helmet actually saved your life? If the answer is none....based on that answer and that track record could/would you now advise others to not to wear them?


Been there....done that....had the skid marks to prove it.....Gordon in NC

Last edited by Gordon Gray; 07/11/14 11:05 am.
Re: Rim lock or no rim lock?
bonneville15 #552343 07/11/14 11:02 am
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Never been able to understand why rim locks are fitted on the rear wheel but not the front------
Not getting into the for or against argument but if you think they should be fitted then surely they should be fitted on both front and rear wheels.
Always puzzled me---

Re: Rim lock or no rim lock?
Tridentman #552346 07/11/14 11:12 am
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Originally Posted by Tridentman
Never been able to understand why rim locks are fitted on the rear wheel but not the front------
Not getting into the for or against argument but if you think they should be fitted then surely they should be fitted on both front and rear wheels.
Always puzzled me---


I need to wait until I can get back to the shop to check....but I do believe they were stock (front/rear)on some BSA's ....but I know for sure not on all of them. I think my problem had a LOT to do with the construction of the tires I was running. They had VERY soft sidewalls and I'm pretty sure that added to the problem.

Stepping down off the soapbox..(because it REALLY isn't any of my business what other people do) blush..Gordon in NC

Re: Rim lock or no rim lock?
bonneville15 #552350 07/11/14 11:58 am
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Originally Posted by Gordon Gray
Originally Posted by Tridentman
Never been able to understand why rim locks are fitted on the rear wheel but not the front------
Not getting into the for or against argument but if you think they should be fitted then surely they should be fitted on both front and rear wheels.
Always puzzled me---


I need to wait until I can get back to the shop to check....but I do believe they were stock (front/rear)on some BSA's ....but I know for sure not on all of them. I think my problem had a LOT to do with the construction of the tires I was running. They had VERY soft sidewalls and I'm pretty sure that added to the problem.

Stepping down off the soapbox..(because it REALLY isn't any of my business what other people do) blush..Gordon in NC


While both wheels share mostly similar forces ,
only the back wheel gets subjected to acceleration torque
.

Re: Rim lock or no rim lock?
bonneville15 #552353 07/11/14 12:41 pm
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I'm not in favour of or against the rim lock. I have one on the rear because it's always been there and I never gave it much thought.
But thinking about it theoretically...

Quote
only the back wheel gets subjected to acceleration torque

With respect for your quote, Quinten, the back wheel is the accelleration wheel but:
the front wheel is the more important brake wheel.

If you accelerate a mass from stand still to a certain speed in a certain time,
this asks a certain torque on the rear wheel.
If you brake that same mass from that certain speed to stand still in the same time,
my guess is the torque on the front wheel will be about equal.
As a result the shear force on the connection
between the tyre and the rim will be about equal.

Give or take a few procents for different rim diameters...


Ger B

Re: Rim lock or no rim lock?
bonneville15 #552355 07/11/14 12:55 pm
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Actually you brake with a higher degree of deceleration than you accelerate so if you are only going to put rim locks on one wheel logically it should be the front wheel.
And a rear wheel slide is marginally easier to control than a front wheel slide.
So----still puzzled-----

Re: Rim lock or no rim lock?
bonneville15 #552413 07/11/14 7:24 pm
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Originally Posted by Ger
I'm not in favour of or against the rim lock. I have one on the rear because it's always been there and I never gave it much thought.
But thinking about it theoretically...

Quote
only the back wheel gets subjected to acceleration torque

With respect for your quote, Quinten, the back wheel is the accelleration wheel but:
the front wheel is the more important brake wheel.

If you accelerate a mass from stand still to a certain speed in a certain time,
this asks a certain torque on the rear wheel.
If you brake that same mass from that certain speed to stand still in the same time,
my guess is the torque on the front wheel will be about equal.
As a result the shear force on the connection
between the tyre and the rim will be about equal.

Give or take a few procents for different rim diameters...


The back wheel is subject to torque forces constantly while accelerating and maintaining speed that the front tire never sees . Plus contact friction may be lost or partially lost , over and over , from hard acceleration or an uneven road suface . The rear tire then experiences varying degees of extra torque as fricton-contact is attempting to be regained by a wheel spinning faster than necessary . The rear tire may go from hard acceleration to hard deceleration in a few tenths of a sec. ( it may lay a patch coming or going ) . It is also be subject to lateral torsion when the rear tire slides in a turn . Steering and common sense stop
Most riders from sliding their front wheels .

In contrast, The front tire has it easy . Under hard braking , It is subject to strong straight line deceleration torque , where some to most of the inputs already sustained by the rear wheel are transfered to the front.

Tire wear is a history of forces applied . With the same compound tires front and back,
Which tire wears first ?
.

Last edited by quinten; 07/11/14 8:50 pm. Reason: clarity ?
Re: Rim lock or no rim lock?
quinten #552416 07/11/14 7:34 pm
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In a puncture a rim lock is only going to hold the beads at one point, the rest of the tyre is still free to obey whatever forces are applied to it.

davy

Re: Rim lock or no rim lock?
bonneville15 #552428 07/11/14 8:56 pm
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...just reading all these I have many questions; some:
-how do you guys puncture in the road? Seriously; National roads or freeways have perfect pavement/tarmac normally without things on...ok may be on the back roads.

-Too much pressure and hot weather?

-My main concern is always with the small 10 size of my Vespa wheels...very dangerous, but still they do not have the locks...why?; in fact all the scooters that I checked do not have it.

So, are they universal? or depends on the size of the tire?
I have a 21 front and 16 rear; will be enough space for the 21? and for those 10s?

Last edited by reverb; 07/12/14 3:00 am.
Re: Rim lock or no rim lock?
bonneville15 #552431 07/11/14 9:10 pm
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Funny, I've never seen a Japanese bike with a rim lock. Always took them off the Brit-bikes (including my own). There might be some benefit to having them if a tire blows out, but if used for that reason they should be on both wheels, no?

My feeling is that they are holdovers from the days when Brit bikes were also regularly ridden off road or had tires that tended to slip on the rims.

As a CZ and Husky mechanic back in the day, I only fitted them to the MX and off-road bikes. Too, off-road bikes tend to use lower tire pressures, perhaps making the tire more likely to slip on the rim. Many modern rims have serrations on their inner lips that prevent tire slip.

Are any modern MXer's fitted with rim locks?


When people who should have known better cautioned me about the dangers of motorcycle racing, I always told them that a fear of death is nothing more than a fear of life in disguise.
Re: Rim lock or no rim lock?
bonneville15 #552444 07/11/14 10:43 pm
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On 60's BSA's based on my experience the road version has a single rim lock on the rear, the off-road bikes have one on the front and 2 on the rear. I am presuming as the practise is to drop tyre pressures for off roading the tyres are more likely to slip.

Re: Rim lock or no rim lock?
Nick #552464 07/12/14 1:47 am
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Hi,

Originally Posted by Old Cafe Racer
In a puncture a rim lock is only going to hold the beads at one point, the rest of the tyre is still free to obey whatever forces are applied to it.

I can't speak for single rim locks but, on triples, there were two originally and ime they keep the whole bead in place. :bigt

Originally Posted by reverb
-how do you guys puncture in the road? Seriously; National roads or freeways have perfect pavement/tarmac normally without things on

That's the point, punctures aren't "normal"; ime, it's debris - nails, screws, unidentifiable bits of metal, etc. - that cause punctures.

Originally Posted by reverb
Vespa wheels
do not have the locks...why?

Cost. All manufacturers try to increase the gap between what it costs them to build something and what they can sell it for. If they aren't compelled by law to fit something, they'll only fit it if the competition's fitting it.

Originally Posted by reverb
are they universal? or depends on the size of the tire?

No. Sort-of; width and, to a lesser extent, rim diameter.

Originally Posted by Nick
Funny, I've never seen a Japanese bike with a rim lock.

Can't speak for everywhere in the world but early versions of several British models had 'em, Z1 included.

Originally Posted by Nick
benefit to having them if a tire blows out, but if used for that reason they should be on both wheels, no?

Yes. Regrettably, the new ones I've seen for sale aren't as nice as certainly the originals on my T160's. frown

Hth.

Regards,

Re: Rim lock or no rim lock?
bonneville15 #552468 07/12/14 4:06 am
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Quote
subject to torque forces constantly
Which tire wears first?
.

I have to admit you have a point there...

However, not the length of time in which the torque is applied is important.
It's the torque itself, no matter if it's applicable during tenths of seconds or during minutes or hours.
In my trade that's how an engineer calculates the thickness of a shaft,
and other parts where power is transmitted.
The push up force of a ships propeller on the taper of a propeller shaft is an example, or the number of Vee-belts in an E-motor - compressor drive.
The torque is in the equations. The time is not.

grin A young team member of mine races a crotch rocket and said his front tyre wore faster than his rear.
But that was an exception, as he was told by his tyre supplier.


Ger B

Re: Rim lock or no rim lock?
bonneville15 #552515 07/12/14 12:24 pm
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...Stuart, thanks.

Regarding rear tire wearing; besides the forces, in my opinion they wear out fast due to the torque applied, the brake applied mostly; the burn outs, etc; front tire is not exposed to these situations, except the use of the front brake, but normally do not have the same abuse that the rear brake, in where the rubber slide onto the tarmac.

Re: Rim lock or no rim lock?
Nick #552611 07/13/14 2:14 am
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Originally Posted by dave jones
I don't suppose a 3TA needs them!


Originally Posted by Nick
Funny, I've never seen a Japanese bike with a rim lock.


Funny, I remember my first bike, '66 Yamaha 60cc road bike, had rim locks. All of 5HP, and the Japs thought it needed them. I never had a blowout to test whether they were correct.
BTW: I have seen rim locks on the front wheels of dirt bikes. I think maybe the reason we don't see them on the front of street bikes is that they can complicate wheel balancing, which is more critical on the front wheel.


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Re: Rim lock or no rim lock?
bonneville15 #552618 07/13/14 3:32 am
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There is more info here on Beadlocks

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beadlock

http://www.4strokes.com/tech/rimlock/

The reason dirt bikers choose to have em is they sometimes reduce the tyre pressures to get over rocks and other obstacles.


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