BritBike Forum logo
BritBike SponsorBritBike SponsorBritBike SponsorBritBike SponsorBritBike SponsorBritBike SponsorBritBike SponsorThe Bonneville ShopBritBike Sponsor
Upgrade to: Premium Membership | Premium Life Membership | Vendor Membership | Site Sponsor Membership
ShoutChat Box
Comment Guidelines: Do post respectful and insightful comments.
Buy BritBike staff a coffee
Buy BritBike's staff a coffeeStill here since 1996 serving BritBike enthusiasts..
Search eBay for motorcycle parts in following countries
Australia, Canada, France, Holland, Italy, United Kingdom, USA
Random Gallery photo
Member Spotlight
DoubleDiamond
DoubleDiamond
Hampshire, England
Posts: 292
Joined: August 2012
Show All Member Profiles 
Newest Members
longstroke, Lovatomi, Gary Hawthorn, Marcel Fekete, Changaroo
10896 Registered Users
Top Posters(30 Days)
franko 131
DavidP 71
quinten 68
Popular Topics(Views)
1,042,360 mail-order LSR
a word from..
Forum Statistics
Forums34
Topics68,003
Posts682,377
Members10,896
Most Online14,755
May 5th, 2019
Who's Online Now
58 registered members (Alex Lynch), 338 guests, and 784 spiders.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Rate Thread
Dyno pulls.....then the battery croaks #542064 05/08/14 9:18 am
Joined: Oct 2012
Posts: 4,660
Hillbilly bike Online Content OP
BritBike Forum member
OP Online Content
BritBike Forum member
Joined: Oct 2012
Posts: 4,660
This was from a few days ago at DynoTech about 45 miles from me.
My 650 Triumph with new 34 MM Mikuni flatslides,a different exhaust ans new Pazon Smart fire ignition.
The first pull was a rich 11.3 A/F ratio ,#240 mains, timing at conservative 37 degrees total.
Dropped down to #220 mains,A/F ratio better at 12.5,same timing.Picked up some power. The engine started to misfire at 6000 rpm and then it got very quiet. A sudden complete battery failure...Bummer, I didn't bring a spare battery.. I was expecting to get the timing and exhaust dialed in...
The engine made 40 ft lbs of torque from 4900-6500 rpm with a peak of 45 at 5500 rpm.
Air density was 1500 during the testing.
I'm fabricating a new exhaust as we speak and will get back on the dyno in a few weeks.

[Linked Image]


79 T140D, 96 900M Ducati ....On a bike you can out run the demons..
Support Your #1 BritBike Forum!

Check out British motorcycles for sale:
British Motorcycles on e-Bay UK
British motorcycles on e-Bay North America
Re: Dyno pulls.....then the battery croaks [Re: Hillbilly bike] #542084 05/08/14 12:00 pm
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 1,847
Ron - in California R.I.P. Offline
In Remembrance
Offline
In Remembrance
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 1,847
Darn... sorry.. I should of mentioned that in a total loss system, batteries can go flat pretty fast on the dyno.. I keep a battery charger on it during testing... And even a low battery can cause a reduction in power.. This brings up another comment.. I see some racers running total loss ignition, have a very small battery, trying to save that last bit of weight.. sometimes there is a trade off that is not readily recognised.

A few years ago.. a pal was prepping for a Bonneville run.. he bought two new bateries.. but they were not motorcycle batteries but for computer back up use.. yes they both failed in a very short time. The vibration killed them. I suggested he get a plain old lead acid battery.. and indeed they got a new record on an old borrowed battery...

Last week another pal had his bike quit at Willow Springs.. his fancy battery was down to 5 volts.. no good.. he never charged it during the day.. cost him a good finish.. sent him to get a cheap lead acid battery.. the next day he got a good finish..

So, running a total loss ignition system works just fine.. the only issue I had was like 5 years ago at Daytona, when the battery strap broke and the battery fell off the bike. Cost us a podium.


so we do need to keep up with battery maintenance, and not risk it going flat. (or falling off the bike.. booo..)

Good luck next session..!

Ron

Last edited by Ron - in California; 05/08/14 12:06 pm.
Re: Dyno pulls.....then the battery croaks [Re: Ron - in California R.I.P.] #542087 05/08/14 12:35 pm
Joined: Oct 2012
Posts: 4,660
Hillbilly bike Online Content OP
BritBike Forum member
OP Online Content
BritBike Forum member
Joined: Oct 2012
Posts: 4,660
Ron,the battery won't take a charge,it's "broken" inside. It's a year and half old gel battery. It was never a problem and gave about 1 hour running before the voltage dropped below 11 volts.I took care to have the battery encased in neoprene foam on all 6 sides and a snug fitting heavy steel enclosure.ECTA/SCTA rules require a substantial battery box.
I should have brought the spare battery laugh
The dyno operator is familiar with Brit Bike flat trackers and feels my engine has a power potential near 60 HP at the rear wheels once the intake,exhaust and timing is sorted out.Of course at 100 bucks an hour he might also be a good salesman laughing


79 T140D, 96 900M Ducati ....On a bike you can out run the demons..
Re: Dyno pulls.....then the battery croaks [Re: Hillbilly bike] #542090 05/08/14 1:03 pm
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 10,264
J
John Healy Offline
BritBike Forum member
Offline
BritBike Forum member
J
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 10,264
Quote
I keep a battery charger on it during testing...


This is something to be avoided, and not considered a good idea when an electronic ignition is involved!
John


Re: Dyno pulls.....then the battery croaks [Re: John Healy] #542188 05/09/14 2:39 am
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 1,847
Ron - in California R.I.P. Offline
In Remembrance
Offline
In Remembrance
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 1,847
Doesn't hurt a thing with a proper charger that never goes over 14 volts..

Ron

Re: Dyno pulls.....then the battery croaks [Re: Ron - in California R.I.P.] #542200 05/09/14 6:38 am
Joined: Oct 2012
Posts: 4,660
Hillbilly bike Online Content OP
BritBike Forum member
OP Online Content
BritBike Forum member
Joined: Oct 2012
Posts: 4,660
My small charger will push the voltage up around 15 volts when the battery is fully charged .....

When the engine died on the dyno my first thought was another ignition failure.But I tested the battery and it had 12.5 volts with no load. Then turned on the ignition and it was 11 volts,low but the engine should still run.When I kicked over the engine the electric tach needle keep cycling between 0 and 8000 rpm. So I figured the ignition was faulty ( I am a bit suspicious of the ignition due to it failing once before)..If I had checked further I would have seen the battery voltage go to nearly zero each time coil was energized as the engine cranked over.
Being that I was an electrical contractor you might think I should have been more through with trouble shooting.But my mind was fuzzy from reving the engine to 7500 rpm repeatedly on the dyno.


79 T140D, 96 900M Ducati ....On a bike you can out run the demons..
Re: Dyno pulls.....then the battery croaks [Re: Hillbilly bike] #542209 05/09/14 8:01 am
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 505
7
76degree-triumph Offline
BritBike Forum member
Offline
BritBike Forum member
7
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 505
Gday Hillbilly, I've used 12v gel cell batteries in my racing sidecar because they don't leak and can be mounted in any position on the bike. A long story short but this type of battery will cost you a weekend of racing. Gel cell batteries will fail without notice. I run a total loss on my bike. You can have a race with a battery that has been fully charged, and ride back into the pits. Go to start your bike for the next race and the battery is dead. Attach the charger and it will squeal at you because the battery has a dead short and will not accept any charge. Don't touch sealed gel cell batteries.
Cheers, Chris.


1950 Speed Twin outfit
1951 Thunderbird outfit (76 degree racebike, or is it 90 deg now?)
1955 BSA D3 minibike outfit
Triumph solo's
Re: Dyno pulls.....then the battery croaks [Re: Hillbilly bike] #542220 05/09/14 9:16 am
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 10,264
J
John Healy Offline
BritBike Forum member
Offline
BritBike Forum member
J
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 10,264
Quote
But I tested the battery and it had 12.5 volts with no load


A very important lesson to be learned here! Although HB knows better, in an altered state (and standing beside a Triumph holding the throttle with the engine turning 7500 rpm on a dyno will do that to you) he almost made the ultimate newby mistake while checking his battery.

He took a NO LOAD battery measurement. Meaningless! Meaningless I say!!

As his senses started to return his training did kick-in and he put a load on the battery and the truth was revealed.

Having seen the inside of more than one dyno room with all sorts of punctures in the sound deadening walls, standing beside an engine turning 7,500 rpm, or more, still brings me to an altered state...


Re: Dyno pulls.....then the battery croaks [Re: John Healy] #542240 05/09/14 12:30 pm
Joined: Sep 2013
Posts: 2,149
Q
quinten Online Happy
BritBike Forum member
Online Happy
BritBike Forum member
Q
Joined: Sep 2013
Posts: 2,149
Originally Posted by John Healy
Quote
I keep a battery charger on it during testing...


This is something to be avoided, and not considered a good idea when an electronic ignition is involved!
John

John , just wondering the reason on this ? .... hooked up like this , the battery in the charging circuit is a resistive load and should take the brunt should the charger
"Over charge" ...
.

Re: Dyno pulls.....then the battery croaks [Re: Hillbilly bike] #542245 05/09/14 12:42 pm
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 10,264
J
John Healy Offline
BritBike Forum member
Offline
BritBike Forum member
J
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 10,264
The unfiltered output of a battery charger can cause the EI unit to be erratic or cause the box to emit continuos sparks. See Boyer Fault Finding on their web page.


Re: Dyno pulls.....then the battery croaks [Re: Hillbilly bike] #542255 05/09/14 1:44 pm
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 1,847
Ron - in California R.I.P. Offline
In Remembrance
Offline
In Remembrance
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 1,847
Not all battery chargers are unfiltered... look for a large capacitor inside.. plus a full wave rectifyer.. some of the small new chargers are not suitable for in-use situtaions. But then the ignition system should also have the proper input filtering as well.. if not.. then get something higher quality.. The extra parts are cheap.. pennies in large quantities, yet some Manufacturers cheap out... Another reason I now longer run any igntion made in the U.K.

Some batteries are NOT good enough for motorcycles that vibrate.. and they can fail at any time. Good padding helps but is not guarantee. Now for dyno use a large car battery with long leads to the bike can save a lot of grief. But when racing you need a battery that will take the punishement..

Ron

Last edited by Ron - in California; 05/09/14 1:45 pm.
Re: Dyno pulls.....then the battery croaks [Re: Ron - in California R.I.P.] #542260 05/09/14 2:45 pm
Joined: Oct 2012
Posts: 4,660
Hillbilly bike Online Content OP
BritBike Forum member
OP Online Content
BritBike Forum member
Joined: Oct 2012
Posts: 4,660
Originally Posted by Ron - in California


Some batteries are NOT good enough for motorcycles that vibrate.. and they can fail at any time. Good padding helps but is not guarantee. Now for dyno use a large car battery with long leads to the bike can save a lot of grief. But when racing you need a battery that will take the punishement..

Ron


Ron,it gets worse, it's not like my Jeep parked right out side, 10 feet away, doesn't have a battery.
And worse than that....I am the go to guy for friends and family with auto charging problems.I used to rebuild GM alternators as a side job......I always brought a spare battery to the race track...
I had a kick start only Harley Shovel head about 10 years ago.Riding along I saw smoke and the engine quit. The wiring harness (old) suffered a bolted short and before I could do anything the whole main harness was gone.I searched a bit and found an old lamp in someone's trash.I ripped out the lamp cord and slit it down the length.Lacking any tools I peeled off insulation on the ends by smashing the insulation ,rock on rock. Jumped the coil to the battery, a few kicks,and rode home.
Next time I'll bring a spare battery that's for sure....


79 T140D, 96 900M Ducati ....On a bike you can out run the demons..
Re: Dyno pulls.....then the battery croaks [Re: Hillbilly bike] #542299 05/09/14 8:15 pm
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 157
S
spook Offline
BritBike Forum member
Offline
BritBike Forum member
S
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 157
What is wrong with a well set up Joe Hunt or Lucas SR2 magneto?

Re: Dyno pulls.....then the battery croaks [Re: Hillbilly bike] #542303 05/09/14 8:54 pm
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 1,802
A
Adam M. Offline
BritBike Forum member
Offline
BritBike Forum member
A
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 1,802
Heavy ???

Re: Dyno pulls.....then the battery croaks [Re: spook] #542332 05/10/14 6:25 am
Joined: Oct 2012
Posts: 4,660
Hillbilly bike Online Content OP
BritBike Forum member
OP Online Content
BritBike Forum member
Joined: Oct 2012
Posts: 4,660
Originally Posted by spook
What is wrong with a well set up Joe Hunt or Lucas SR2 magneto?


It's a unit Triumph.....As I mentioned in another thread the world's fastest LSR naked frame Triumph 650 ,131 mph,is sparked by a Morris magneto who is also a sponsor. Morris mags are close to 1000 bucks..
For the record; the Pazon Smart Fire had no problem firing a .030 plug gap at 7500 rpm with a 12.5 A/F ratio.


79 T140D, 96 900M Ducati ....On a bike you can out run the demons..
Re: Dyno pulls.....then the battery croaks [Re: NickL] #542499 05/11/14 6:30 am
Joined: Oct 2012
Posts: 4,660
Hillbilly bike Online Content OP
BritBike Forum member
OP Online Content
BritBike Forum member
Joined: Oct 2012
Posts: 4,660
Originally built with no alternator,a charging system was installed later. Then I noticed during a tear down the alternator rotor body was loose on the hub. So the alternator was removed again.
The engine running time at the track is never more than 30-40 minutes with minimal battery discharge. A quality wet battery is only $40.
My philosophy on mechanical stuff is based on a pilot's sarcastic remark..
Quote
Having a twin engine aircraft doubles the risk of an engine failure



[Linked Image]


79 T140D, 96 900M Ducati ....On a bike you can out run the demons..
Re: Dyno pulls.....then the battery croaks [Re: Hillbilly bike] #542522 05/11/14 11:06 am
Joined: Jan 2012
Posts: 459
P
Pete Suchawreck Offline
BritBike Forum member
Offline
BritBike Forum member
P
Joined: Jan 2012
Posts: 459
It was still enlightening and a nice ride. The dyno owner had some Kevin Cameron stories too. I was impressed that one run on the dyno determined dropping the mains two sizes which gave Tony a 2-3hp increase across the board (until the battery died) The bike sounded strong and carbureted cleanly before the jetting change.

Re: Dyno pulls.....then the battery croaks [Re: Hillbilly bike] #542532 05/11/14 12:11 pm
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 1,847
Ron - in California R.I.P. Offline
In Remembrance
Offline
In Remembrance
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 1,847
Pete.. exactly.. this is why good tuning practices yield good results.. I found similar results one main jet size is worth most of one H.P. And the engine runs just fine when rich by several main jet sizes. And the old plug chop won't tell the full story either. Every little bit helps..

So, that conical rear hub is very heavy... I drilled mine and got a bit of weight off of it...

Ron

Re: Dyno pulls.....then the battery croaks [Re: NickL] #543708 05/17/14 6:31 am
Joined: Oct 2012
Posts: 4,660
Hillbilly bike Online Content OP
BritBike Forum member
OP Online Content
BritBike Forum member
Joined: Oct 2012
Posts: 4,660
Back on the dyno this coming week. The shop is busy so I'm on call if someone cancels.
I'm back running two individual 1.5 inch diameter 36 inch long TT style pipes.I pipe exits are drilled to insert a bolt for tuning purposes like Harley LSR bikes use.I'm compare this to the two into one system...
I think 60 HP at the rear wheel is a bit much to expect from this engine. That would be near 65-66 hp at the flywheel from a 650 built by a hobbyist...
CR Axtell tuned 750 Triumph flat track bikes in the early 70's made about 71 flywheel HP at 7000 rpm.
of course all dynos aren't the same but still that's pushing 1.75 HP per cubic inch from a 1930's engine design.


79 T140D, 96 900M Ducati ....On a bike you can out run the demons..
Re: Dyno pulls.....then the battery croaks [Re: NickL] #543840 05/18/14 6:47 am
Joined: Oct 2012
Posts: 4,660
Hillbilly bike Online Content OP
BritBike Forum member
OP Online Content
BritBike Forum member
Joined: Oct 2012
Posts: 4,660
Yes.I don't know the exact drive train loses on a Triumph but it's probably near 10 percent.


79 T140D, 96 900M Ducati ....On a bike you can out run the demons..

Moderated by  Allan Gill 

Home | Sponsors | Newsletter | Regalia | Calendar | Bike Project | BritBike Museum | Spiders Cartoons | DVD- Manuals & Parts books
Upgrade to: Premium Membership | Premium Life Membership | Vendor Membership | Site Sponsor Membership
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.3