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New rear Chain #541992 05/07/14 8:31 pm
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Juan Offline OP
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I would like to know what would be the best way to prepare the chain to install on my bike. I`m thinking about buying Renolds for this bike since I don`t ride it a lot and want it close to original. Should I clean it in solvent first, then heat it and soak in oil or using the new spray greases that congeal be enough?Thanks.
Juan



Juan
1978 T140V Boneville 1969 T120R Boneville
1967 TR6R Tiger 2014 Triumph Thruxton
2016 Triumph Street Twin
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Re: New rear Chain [Re: Juan] #542005 05/07/14 10:11 pm
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Stuart Offline
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Hi Juan,

Originally Posted by Juan
I`m thinking about buying Renolds for this bike since I don`t ride it a lot and want it close to original.

"Original" Renold chains were manufactured in Manchester, England. Renold haven't manufactured in GB for years and the last Renold rear chain I used was worn out in no time. mad Chains are heavy, imho don't waste your time and money getting a Renold from some far-distant supplier when what's Japanese and available locally is much cheaper and probably better quality. frown

Originally Posted by Juan
Should I clean it in solvent first,

Ime and mho, no. The chain has a lubricating and preserving grease put there during manufacture; why would you want to get rid of it any quicker than using the chain will do?

Originally Posted by Juan
then heat it and soak in oil

I think you're getting confused - bathing a cleaned chain in heated lubricant requires a special grease that melts, supposedly flows between the pins and bushes, and congeals when the chain is removed from the heat. In practice:-

. if you tried to that with oil, the hot oil is so thin it would simply flow out of the bushes again when you removed the chain from the oil bath; frown

. it is very hit-and-miss whether the melted grease gets between every one of a 100-odd pins 'n' bushes; whistle

. the hot grease is dangerous, at best makes a filthy mess if you spill it and stinks to high heaven. sick

Originally Posted by Juan
enough?

Depends how many compromises you want to accept:-

. The bushes and the pins that fit inside them are precision engineering, same as the rotating components, say, in the engine. Would you expose the engine internals to dust and grit, give them a squirt of lubricant every now-and-then and expect them to last very long?

. So, unless you're willing to either enclose the chain or at least lubricate it continuously with something like a Scottoiler or similar pump, the chain will wear out in a few thousand miles. Whether you bathe the chain in hot grease, spray it with an expensive aerosol lubricant or a combination of those two, they're all compromises that are more about making you feel better than substantially extending the chain's life. frown

Hth.

Regards,

Re: New rear Chain [Re: Juan] #542096 05/08/14 2:02 pm
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dave jones Offline
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I disagree with Stuart here. What I would do is to clean the factory grease off with a solvent and then use Putoline chain wax with graphite that you heat on a stove and drop the chain into. This is usually used on Motocross bikes. It doesn't smell much at all and it is possible to do the job without spilling it. This is what I do and the chain has lasted for many thousands of miles and I haven't had to adjust it much. It still has loads of life left. I used an Iwis chain which is much, much better than the old Renolds. I also put on new sprockets but you don't have to do this every time as long as you don't wear the chain out to the bitter end ( until it comes to the end of the adjustment and you start removing links, etc). Repeat the cleaning/ heating process once every 1000 miles. In between times I use Wurth Dry Chain Lube which is the best I have tried. Dust and dirt doesn't stick to thes products like it does to oil or normal gease.

dave

Last edited by dave jones; 05/08/14 2:03 pm.
Re: New rear Chain [Re: dave jones] #542162 05/08/14 10:06 pm
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Juan Offline OP
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Thanks for the help guys. Haven`t bought the chain yet searching for a good deal.
Juan


Juan
1978 T140V Boneville 1969 T120R Boneville
1967 TR6R Tiger 2014 Triumph Thruxton
2016 Triumph Street Twin
Re: New rear Chain [Re: dave jones] #542183 05/09/14 1:23 am
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Stuart Offline
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Hi,

Originally Posted by dave jones
Repeat the cleaning/ heating process once every 1000 miles.

First Scottoiler I installed was in 1991, with a new chain and sprockets. The bike covered about 10,000 miles in the first year, when I had a 70-mile round-trip daily commute. Then I changed jobs and haven't commuted by bike since.

But I still own the bike. I've never removed the chain, much less "every 1000 miles". shocked Wet ride (which ime can wash off every bit of boil-up/spray-on chain lube inside 50 miles) in prospect? Turn the Scottoiler pump thumb adjuster up a notch. Dry ride? Turn it down again. Touring? I just check the oil level (transparent reservoir) first thing every morning and top it up if necessary; certainly no grovelling around under the bike checking and adjusting the chain (never needs adjustment between the bike's 1500-mile services, then no more than a bolt-head flat or two).

More to the point, I could and did get home from a wet ride, put the bike in the garage and go on holiday for two weeks; when I got back, the chain was still perfectly normal. Nowadays, I can go months without using the bike ... and the chain is still perfectly normal. Twenty-three years after I fitted it, the chain is about halfway along the adjusters and doesn't even have a tight spot.

Hth.

Regards,

Re: New rear Chain [Re: Juan] #543496 05/16/14 5:00 am
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dave jones Offline
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I was only saying that the old way works if you have the time to do it. I wasn't saying that you shouldn't use a Scottoiler.
Dave

Re: New rear Chain [Re: dave jones] #543639 05/16/14 7:52 pm
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desco Online Happy
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"Good deals" usually cost more in the long run.
It is not wise to go cheap on motorcycle parts.


1968 T120R
1972 T120RV
Any advice given is without a warranty expressed or implied.
Re: New rear Chain [Re: dave jones] #543699 05/17/14 3:21 am
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Stuart Offline
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Hi Dave,

Originally Posted by dave jones
I was only saying that the old way works if you have the time to do it. I wasn't saying that you shouldn't use a Scottoiler.

And I'm not saying you shouldn't do it the "old way" if you want. Just that the odd modern development isn't 'too good to be true' ... grin

Hth.

Regards,

Re: New rear Chain [Re: Juan] #543704 05/17/14 4:33 am
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A new Renolds chain may look original, but it's not like the original and is one of the worst chains on the market.


Amateur Loctite enthusiast.
Re: New rear Chain [Re: Juan] #564572 09/23/14 7:51 am
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Renolds is a Trademark that has been purchased and being used by application to Chinese made chain to give it virtual attributes only. In the end its still only cheap Chinese chain unless you can get NOS UK made stocks. Much better to speak to Andy the Chainman and use what he supplies.

Re: New rear Chain [Re: kommando] #564584 09/23/14 9:12 am
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TR6Ray Offline
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Stuart,

That Scottoiler sounds like it does its job very well for you, but I can't help but ask where does all that oil end up? Any sort of automatic oiling system I've ever seen would coat the back rim and tire with nasty oil splatters. Have you found something that works in the Scottoiler, yet doesn't fling off all over your bike?

Ray


'64 TR6R Plus some Twins from other countries (U.S., Germany, Japan)
Re: New rear Chain [Re: TR6Ray] #564587 09/23/14 9:51 am
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Stuart Offline
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Hi Ray,

Originally Posted by TR6Ray
Any sort of automatic oiling system I've ever seen would coat the back rim and tire with nasty oil splatters. Have you found something that works in the Scottoiler, yet doesn't fling off all over your bike?

I use the standard oil Scott supply.

I can't say that no oil from a Scottoiler gets on the back wheel, but then I doubt any chain lubricant maker would claim that.

The significant part of the Scottoiler fitting instructions is placing the delivery nozzle; the open end of it must be very close to the point where the lower run of the chain goes on to the rear sprocket. Too far away and the complex aerodynamics around there catch the oil droplets and spread them over the back of the bike, plus more oil is needed to actually lubricate the chain, which leads to more oil being spread elsewhere ...

Then, if you get the delivery nozzle too close to the sprocket or chain, any touch simply smears the plastic over the hole and no oil gets out ... mad No question, first Scottoiler you own, this part of the set-up is a pita. frown

But, once you get it right, it's amazing how low the pump setting can be and the chain still be lubricated. I fitted my first Scottoiler to a daily rider and kept turning the pump down and down because oil was getting on the back wheel, but undoing the split-link showed the pins were being lubricated and the 'O'-rings weren't drying out and cracking up.

When the Scottoiler delivery is working correctly, the oil droplets are delivered to where adjacent links rotate on a pin just before the chain rotates around the sprocket. Capillary action spreads the oil between the sideplates and along both surfaces of the roller to the other side (although you can get a twin delivery nozzle that delivers oil to both sides of the chain). More oil ensures there's a gradual movement through the chain parts, chain rotation forces bring the oil to the outside of the chain, where it catches and clumps debris landing on the chain 'til chain rotation flings the lumps off; that's the reason you should see only very little lubricant on other parts of the back of the bike.

In the dry, I run my Scottoiler pumps on '1' (just above the minimum setting), the chains don't wear out. :bigt

Hth.

Regards,

Re: New rear Chain [Re: Juan] #564599 09/23/14 12:04 pm
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John Healy Offline
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[Linked Image]

These half links are from current production. The masters we sell are also made in Germany. So while Renold does have production facilities, not all of their chains are made there!

It is interesting to note that after publishing information referencing that Renold chain did not meet IOS standards for motorcycle chain, Wassell recently published a retraction stating that the information was not true.

Last edited by John Healy; 09/23/14 12:05 pm.

Re: New rear Chain [Re: John Healy] #564605 09/23/14 12:53 pm
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Originally Posted by John Healy
These half links are from current production.


I doubt that, as the barcode doesn't appear to be valid.






Re: New rear Chain [Re: Juan] #564630 09/23/14 4:24 pm
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In the seventies, while perusing the Machinery's Handbook (bible for engineers) I discovered that roller chains are not what they are thought to be. Not a single chain ever specified for a motorcycle met the strength and stress requirements asked of it.

This is crazy. Why are we riding motorcycles where the chain could snap at any moment and the company that made it would laugh at you for expecting it to work.

So, it is incumbent upon us as the user to buy the best we can find and take good care of it.

So if any of you engineering types know of a chain that even comes close to meeting the needs of our bikes you should tell us.

Who makes the best chain for our bikes? I used to be a Renold believer. I could get 30k out of a primary chain and 20k out of a drive chain.

I've tried the JWIS chain once and thought it was very tough but it may have the same history as the Renold as far as I know.

Anybody willing to stake their reputation on a recommendation for a drive chain for our bikes?

Cheers,
Bill


Bikes
1974 Commando
1985 Honda Nighthawk 650
1957 Thunderbird/T110 "Black Tiger"
Antique Fans: Loads of Emersons (Two six wingers) plus gyros and orbiters.
Re: New rear Chain [Re: HawaiianTiger] #564637 09/23/14 4:54 pm
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Originally Posted by HawaiianTiger
Anybody willing to stake their reputation on a recommendation for a drive chain for our bikes?


Yes, this person: http://www.the-chain-man.co.uk/

Re: New rear Chain [Re: L.A.B.] #564646 09/23/14 5:37 pm
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I have a lot of experience with chains as a dirt bike chain is significantly more abused than a street bike. We use Regina chains a lot- good compromise between price and quality. Also, DID and Tsubaki chains are very good quality.
Years ago, dirt bikers discovered the o-ring chain. It drastically increased the life of the chain and reduced maintenance-keep the o-rings lubricated and it lasts a long time. There is more drag with the o-rings, ie you lose a little power but lasting three -four times as long as a regular chain...I question whether a drive chain's design is not able to withstand the power transfer. There's a lot of 60+ HP off road bikes out there. They shred tires, not chains grin

Re: New rear Chain [Re: Juan] #564652 09/23/14 6:13 pm
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I tried to download a copy of Machinery's handbook but my virus protection blocked it. I wish I could show you the specifications for roller chains. Toothed chains are a little better(Hyvo, etc.) but still below required specifications. Toothed belts are better, even but have stricter tolerances for use as do the toothed chains. A drive shaft is the only power delivery system that meets or exceeds the power of a motorcycle engine. A wet bath for roller chains extends the life by two or three times that of a sprayed on lube or even a drip system. Dirt is the killer as is rain which removes lubrication almost instantly.

I could get a season of use out of a primary chain on my speedway bike as long as it was a Renold. I tried Tsubaki, Diamond and could get maybe a month out of those. I clean them routinely and thoroughly after every race meet. They took a beating being exposed and often dumped in the dirt when the bike was dropped.

This is another example of an engineering solution that works better in practice than it does on paper.

Cheers,
Bill


Bikes
1974 Commando
1985 Honda Nighthawk 650
1957 Thunderbird/T110 "Black Tiger"
Antique Fans: Loads of Emersons (Two six wingers) plus gyros and orbiters.
Re: New rear Chain [Re: Pete Suchawreck] #564653 09/23/14 6:21 pm
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FWIW I bit the bullet right from the start with my Daytona and machined the sprockets down to 1/4" and fitted 520 DiD O ring chain and riveted the joining link rather than use a push bike type clip.
Pays dividends in the long run.
Fitted it, adjusted it after a week once the sprockets had bedded to it and haven't had to adjust it again in 7000km of fast riding.
Same with my other two bikes (Ducati 748/853 & Cagiva Mito) which take the same size chain, no adjustment needed in 3 years of use.

davy

Re: New rear Chain [Re: Old Cafe Racer] #564674 09/23/14 8:23 pm
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Tsubaki or RK


79 T140D, 96 900M Ducati ,2001 Sportster....On a bike you can out run the demons..
Re: New rear Chain [Re: Juan] #564699 09/24/14 12:23 am
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reverb Offline
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...hello Dave Jones, why clean the grease in a new chain?
Thanks

-DID and RK have very good quality at affordable price and are all over the world.

I have a 520 Renold and a 428 DID in the pre unit 500 and a Triple Renold and a rear 520 DID in the T 140s

Re: New rear Chain [Re: reverb] #564714 09/24/14 4:40 am
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dave jones Offline
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I think that the grease the chain has on it when it is new is just to protect it and may stop the better stuff getting into the rollers. This is just my take on it.

Re: New rear Chain [Re: Juan] #564756 09/24/14 12:35 pm
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John Healy Offline
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[Linked Image]

So why does all these Renold parts marked made in Germany show up in my shipments?

IMHO the last thing you want to do is wash the factory lubrication out of a new chain.

No matter what lubricant you use, it is wise to lubricate the chain after ride while it is still hot. The lubricant has a better chance of reaching the inside of the chain and has time to dry/set-up before you fling it all over the back of the motorcycle.

You want to put the chain lube between the side plates where it can flow into the inside of the bearing surfaces. I prefer to take the chain off and put it into a tub of chain lube that you have to heat up. This insures the wear points of the chain are properly lubricated. In between times I soak it in heated chain grease I use chain lube just before I put the bike away for the night.

If you ride a lot in the rain you almost can't over lube the chain. After a long ride in the rain the chain comes off and is soaked in heated chain grease.

Don't throw away your old chain when putting on a new one. It can be used to remove the new chain for lubrication. Connect the two chains together with the master link and draw the chain you wan t to lubricate from the bike. Reverse the process to put your chain back on.

I think the legal department got Wassell's ear when they made remarks stating that Renold chain does not meet proper standards. Maybe the chain man might keep that in mind when he makes his salesman's puffs.


Re: New rear Chain [Re: dave jones] #564757 09/24/14 12:36 pm
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Jouko Offline
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Regina 530 RT which is a reinforced chain with a bit thicker side plates. Does not stretch much and does not seem to need so much lubrication either blush

Jouko

Re: New rear Chain [Re: Juan] #564759 09/24/14 12:56 pm
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The old eastern block 2 stoke bikes sold here in the 70's and 80's had the right idea with the rather unsexy looking full chain enclosure. Keeping the crud out is 80'% of the battle.
Plus they didn't go fast enough to throw the oil off

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