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Wet sumping Dominator 99 #488955 05/06/13 11:18 am
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Blapper Offline OP
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Hi guys,

Well we ran the ol' gal this morning and she sounded great. Problem came after I looked down and saw a pool of oil building under the crankcase breather pipe... oh-oh...

The first attempt at starting the bike came yesterday but an electrical problem meant it only ran on one cylinder. In preparation for starting it and as it had stood for a long while, my brother had removed the sump plug and drained the oil so none glooshed out of the breather pipe when it started. Today, after only 24 hrs (surely not necessary to remove the crankcase drain plug again or so I thought) we have a puddle of oil.

Now what strikes me is that this could be a lump of crud in the oil pump 'a la Triumph', is this a problem like it can be with triumphs or is it an indication of something else? Also what strikes me is that the crankcase breather comes out of the case and straight down (encouraging a nice flow) is this correct? It seems that the breather pipe stub can only fit one way as it looks to have an eccentric mounting plate with only one bolt hole otherwise I would have thought it could go up to the top frame rails and out the rear of the bike so we got drain back.

Lastly, I see oil coming down the side of the crankcase from the area of the junction between the primary case and the crankcase - is this an indication of sloppy work or could this be a direct result of the wet sumping?

Sorry to sound so clueless, I didn't build the motor and I am a Triumph man.

Any help given is always appreciated, thanks in advance.

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Re: Wet sumping Dominator 99 [Re: Blapper] #488972 05/06/13 2:01 pm
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kommando Offline
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Its a gear pump not a plunger pump on a Triumph so a bit of dirt is not causing this drastic wet sumping. It could be

1. Loose pump not located on crankcase properly

2. Worn pump (well worn)


Maybe something else less drastic but I would not be running the bike without checking the pump over by taking the timing cover off.

Re: Wet sumping Dominator 99 [Re: kommando] #488979 05/06/13 3:11 pm
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vancer Offline
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Would say wet sumping is the norm with Nortons. I installed a shut off valve on my Atlas and use a "remove before flight" ribbon with a clothes pin attached when I put bike away and turn oil tap off.


71 T100c
'75 Commando
'64 Jawa
'15 V Strom
Re: Wet sumping Dominator 99 [Re: Blapper] #489033 05/06/13 10:59 pm
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Rohan Offline
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Drain the sump (and return oil to tank).
Let sit for another 24 hours.
Drain sump, and see how much is there.

If a significant amount of oil can get there in 24 hours, something is very well worn. Or amiss.

Otherwise, then take it for a run and see if it does it again.

Re: Wet sumping Dominator 99 [Re: Blapper] #489098 05/07/13 6:49 am
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Blapper Offline OP
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@Kommando: I knew it has a geared pump, are you saying it does not have the little anti-wet sumping valves that cause the problem on Triumphs?

@vancer: The tap in the pipe is scary - I would be fairly sure that at some point there will be distraction and catastrophe taking place. My brothers memory/attention span is even worse than mine...maybe. This solution would have to be a worst case scenario.

@Rohan: Makes sense to do this but what is significant? On a dry sump motorcycle after 24 hrs I would not expect more than a full egg cup or so if all is well but there was more than that on the floor after the second start up. Maybe after a run it will reduce.

As I said I did not rebuild the motor, but an experienced Triumph/Vincent guy did. I do not remember there being a problem with wet sumping when my other brother had it (from new). It has done 45,000 miles to date BTW.

Nobody commented on the crankcase breather pipe? Has this been installed correctly then? I note it is on the low side of the motor when the bike is on the prop stand which seems to encourage dripping when the engine is restarted due to 'fling'.

Nobody has mentioned the oil leak from the crank seal/primary case area of the bike?

Thanks for your replies so far guys, any other comments on the problems not mentioned in the replies so far?


Re: Wet sumping Dominator 99 [Re: Blapper] #489106 05/07/13 7:42 am
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Rohan Offline
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If there is no more than an eggcup full after 24 hours, I'd take it for a (short) run and see that its OK. (no major leaks anywhere)

If its been left for a long while and then started with a sump full of oil, oil can and will try to come out everywhere. Whether its damaged anything will show when you take it for a short ride.
It could be that it will be perfectly OK, and just needs to be ridden regularly.

Engines that are worn will tend to chuck a bit out the breather.
If this is excessive, it may be time for a rebuild, or a re-ring at least.

Nortons gear pump simply has the gears in the way of the oil flowing into the sump. If the gears or pump endplate are worn, oil will flow through faster. The endplate can be resurfaced, easily, to slow this down.

Re: Wet sumping Dominator 99 [Re: Blapper] #489113 05/07/13 9:37 am
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Blapper Offline OP
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Yikes, just been around my bro's to see what is what and in 24 hrs it passed a pint into the sump. Very strange because there was not a problem of that magnitude when it was last used.

Looks like a new pump is on the cards, I just hope that the oil leak from the crank seal 'goes away' wink

Thanks for your experience guys.

Re: Wet sumping Dominator 99 [Re: Blapper] #489118 05/07/13 10:10 am
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A new pump may not be necessary?

Norton gear pumps occasionally need to have all the gear end float removed (achieved by lapping the pump joint faces with a sheet of wet and dry on a flat surface ).

Always leave the crankshaft (and thus the big ends) at the top of the stroke, as that should help to slow down the rate of drainage. Multigrade oil (especially synthetic) will tend to drain at a faster rate than monograde oil.


Last edited by L.A.B.; 05/07/13 10:35 am.
Re: Wet sumping Dominator 99 [Re: Blapper] #489121 05/07/13 10:31 am
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bmwr90s Offline
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[[email protected]: The tap in the pipe is scary - I would be fairly sure that at some point there will be distraction and catastrophe taking place. My brothers memory/attention span is even worse than mine...maybe. This solution would have to be a worst case scenario.


[/quote]

http://s442.photobucket.com/user/65norton/media/Movie-1.mp4.html

Art


1969 XLH
1973 Norton Commando
1991 FLHTC W/SIDECAR
Re: Wet sumping Dominator 99 [Re: Blapper] #489255 05/08/13 1:11 am
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Rohan Offline
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It could be worth looking at the conical oil seal on the oil pump outlet first.
If something has happened to this, could cause it.

But if debris has gone through the oil pump, could be new oil pump time, like you say.

You won't know until you have a look...

Good Luck !

Re: Wet sumping Dominator 99 [Re: Blapper] #489282 05/08/13 6:36 am
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Blapper Offline OP
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@L.A.B.: @Rohan: I'll take a close look at the pump before I splash out for a new one, thanks.

@bmwr90s: That is the best tap solution possible to avoid wet sumping - where on earth did you get what looks like a plumbing part that has electrical contacts?

Re: Wet sumping Dominator 99 [Re: Blapper] #489287 05/08/13 7:55 am
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norton bob Offline
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Was oil returning to the tank?,Stick to a 40 monograde to slow things up.,leave motor on compression, ride it to my place and i'll look it over for you!!.

Re: Wet sumping Dominator 99 [Re: Blapper] #489296 05/08/13 10:06 am
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bmwr90s Offline
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Originally Posted by Blapper

@bmwr90s: That is the best tap solution possible to avoid wet sumping - where on earth did you get what looks like a plumbing part that has electrical contacts?


Blapper, here's the link to what I think was the last thread on wet sumping.
http://www.britbike.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=357222&page=1

This topic was hashed out several times. I think Dyno Dave's response to my question is the most helpful. The following pictures are what I think were the ones I posted in that link. I had a step by step description on how I made the switch but I think you could figure it out by looking at these pics. Fixing the oil pump is really the the 1st thing to do IMO.

Art

This is what I came up with. I did purchase and installed a Colorado Norton Works inline valve but after reading about the possibilities of failure I decided for the hell of it to see if I could make an alarmed shut off valve. This is what I came up with using stuff found in the garage. The Italian ball valve was the starting point. One of the wire leads is insulated from the rest of the valve.The valve is wired up to an old Harley starter relay. When the valve is closed, the relay is not operated. From the normally closed contacts on the relay the circuit is continued to a speaker that was used on an old BMW to let you know your directionals were on. A produces very loud and annoying noise which is why I removed it. Basically the way it works is when the ignition is turned on power is supplied through the normally closed contacts of the relay to the signal unit which at that point makes its racket. When the ball valve is opened the relay operates opening the circuit to the speaker. Pretty much fail safe I think. I haven't
put it in yet, probably I'll do it when spring arrives.



[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]


Last edited by bmwr90s; 05/08/13 2:37 pm.

1969 XLH
1973 Norton Commando
1991 FLHTC W/SIDECAR
Re: Wet sumping Dominator 99 [Re: Blapper] #489430 05/09/13 6:24 am
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Blapper Offline OP
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Hi Bob, Oil was returning to the tank when the engine ran OK, the pint of 40W is appearing after 24hrs.

I will be taking the oil pump apart and expecting to see a face plate that needs refacing.

Art: for sure inventive and neat, but I'll try restoring or if that fails replacing the pump first.

UPDATE: My bro tried emptying the cases for 24 hrs then putting the plug back in for 24 hrs and only got an egg cup full. As we didn't know about the leaving thr motor on compression, it may have stopped there on its own which would have explained the slower drain-down. Anyways that doesn't change anything as it is still too much.

Re: Wet sumping Dominator 99 [Re: Blapper] #489436 05/09/13 8:13 am
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L.A.B. Offline
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I don't think the Dominator manuals include instructions on how to service the oil pump however the information is in the Commando manual (Section C25) if you need it.
http://www.classicbike.biz/Norton/Repair/70up_Commando/70upCommando.pdf

Also:
http://www.doov.com/apps/nortoncomp...-engineprimary-transmission&Itemid=9

Re: Wet sumping Dominator 99 [Re: Blapper] #489487 05/09/13 4:17 pm
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Blapper Offline OP
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Thanks L.A.B.

Re: Wet sumping Dominator 99 [Re: Blapper] #489496 05/09/13 4:51 pm
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kommando Offline
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The only reason to replace a gear pump is if the teeth are all mangled or the body distorted, the refurb in the Commando manual will restore most pumps, when it starts wet sumping again just repeat. I have refurbed my pump 3 times now.

Re: Wet sumping Dominator 99 [Re: Blapper] #489499 05/09/13 5:07 pm
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Just don't expect miracles, as even servicing the pump won't prevent the oil from draining down eventually.

If I know I won't be using my Norton for a while, I usually transfer most of the contents of the oil tank to a container using an oil suction gun. The oil can then be tipped back into the tank before the next start up, which I consider to be easier than having to drain the sump every time and it also lessens chance of the drain plug threads stripping.

Re: Wet sumping Dominator 99 [Re: Blapper] #489588 05/10/13 6:27 am
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Blapper Offline OP
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OK, well I guess that seems like this topic is done. I'll get to the oil pump as soon as I can and refurb it as per the commando manual.

I didn't know that Nortons wet sump even with a good pump and 40W, that explains all the discussions about taps etc.

Thanks guys.


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