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Re: New Rods [Re: Hillbilly bike] #486238 04/17/13 10:34 pm
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Just like to take the time to thank everyone; do to all the brew ha ha in regard to the R&R rods; I am now, not going to run them in my a65 build. The rods I received (a week ago)are straight, spec out at what they should, no twist, etc etc...I questioned the serration when first looking at the rods, and did question re-torqueing the rods, (if) ever in the future I had to split the cases, again. Im old and apparently getting lazy, I don't want to split the cases again, for any reason. So, Im going go with what I know, and that, is Carrillo. Im not building a LSR motor, or a propose built race motor, just a proper street motor. Me being old, grumpy and lazy, has not affected my ability to read, and understand, the writing on the wall. I thought I could save a few bucks by buying the R&R product; and they may run for ever as hard as I can run them?? Im just not willing to risk pissing even more money away with this build by running a connecting rod that is or could be suspect. In any event, thanks for the insight, the information on this forum, for the most part, is priceless....

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Re: New Rods [Re: maxx77] #486254 04/18/13 2:05 am
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DMiller Offline OP
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H.B., I hate to have started a thread that makes you question your build enough to tear it down, but I would be curious to know what you find.

I may follow the lead of maxx77 and tell R&R not to bother replacing these rods. R&R may make some very high quality parts, but the rods I recieved were certainly not that. Kind of leaves a bad taste in your mouth...

Re: New Rods [Re: DMiller] #486282 04/18/13 10:32 am
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No problem really. I discovered a nest of cracks in the frame so the engine is out while my friend preps another one.
I have talked to several of the people who had issues with R&R rods.Mike at R&R gave me his side of the story.I'll tell you all this much; it's a story told many times with hot rod car guys.....
So after all this detective work my conclusion is.... I do believe the R&R rods are more than adequate for my engine.But they did drop theball on DMiller's rods,bad on R&R. I didn't want to use steel rods with a Triumph crank that was designed for aluminum rods and may not deal with the added shock load transmitted by steel rods.And I have little faith in 50 year old stock aluminum Triumph rods that can be close to their limit of fatigue.If I had genuine NOS Triumph rods ,that's a different story.
I'll post photos later day


79 T140D, 96 900M Ducati ,2001 Sportster....On a bike you can out run the demons..
Re: New Rods [Re: Hillbilly bike] #486309 04/18/13 4:01 pm
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40+years ago (damn Im old) I/we never had a problem breaking cranks running steel rods in the T120/T140 motors on the street, or local flat track, (UNTILL, the valves started to float) and we did twist those motors pretty hard; (I did run outboard bearings on the primary side) twisted them so hard that I kinda sorta didn't want to be too close to them...let alone strapping my a%s to one., I once had a conversation with a gentleman, lets call him Bob; I expressed my concern in regard to the stock cranks staying together, flexing to the point of failure; (we did not have the $$ for billet cranks, we were/are just poor farm boys) in any event, Bob then told me what he did to one of his stock T120 cranks.. this is extreme!! he machined the sludge trap square (perfectly round)not sure what micron it was finished at; he then machined a piece of thick wall molly tubing to be a interferences fit, into the machined sludge trap; of course drilled for proper oiling, had the crank heat treated, balanced etc. yup.. running steel rods..I think that motor is still around, still giving the blues to the local Sportster boys ... wish I could say the same for the few I built, then again;) I personally feel you will be fine running steel rods for a LSR motor, run an outboard bearing, if the rules permit; I don't have the time,or cash at this point to build an a65 motor around the R&R rods to take out and flog, till either the rods fail, or something else fails, wish I did.. H.B., Im going to follow your build, go fast and stay safe. DMiller,what I know from personal experience is this; regardless what rods you choose to run, a stock T120/140 crank, being repeatedly twisted hard is going to fail; ask me how I know. this isn't about luck, or being a good/great tuner/builder. its about simple metallurgical physic's. good luck with whatever way you decide to go. I will be watching/waiting for a full report. I love this site. I get to reflect on my youth, and money, sometimes well spent wink . damn, Im old....
all the best to you..
maxx 77.

Re: New Rods [Re: maxx77] #486318 04/18/13 5:05 pm
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Maxx,thanks the info on steel rods.Old? We all are grin
This is what I found a few hours ago after splitting the cases this morning.Look close and you can slight rod joint serration impressions on the bearing insert edge.This had no effect on the bearing,it's still round. The black stuff is not dirt,just assembly grease I wiped off after removing the cap.
At this point I'm committed to using the R&R rods.The crank was sized to fit the bearings clamped in these rods. Then the crank was heat treated and balanced.Change the rods and the bearing fit is gone along with the balance job.
The slight marks on the bearing is totally on me.I have been through crap like this more than once on car engines,shoulda seen it in the several mock ups and "hand fitted" the rods.My only excuse,LAME, is I was distracted because my inexperienced rider was helping.Anyways,it wouldn't cause an issue.

[Linked Image]


79 T140D, 96 900M Ducati ,2001 Sportster....On a bike you can out run the demons..
Re: New Rods [Re: Hillbilly bike] #486326 04/18/13 5:39 pm
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maxx, there are some rr guys doing this now and I have personally broke two done like that. it is a bandade and will help prolong the failure. The good thing is when it breaks the pin holds it togeather.Have a nourish now and going on 12 yrs but only ever run aluminum rods in mine. How about you guys call marino at map and ask him to get his forged rods with steel cap done.I will test them first and make sure there up for the test :-) oh outrigger bearing? not on the mainshaft ?



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Re: New Rods [Re: DMiller] #486335 04/18/13 6:55 pm
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Tim, clean out you Private Message file...

Seeing you have the rod out of the motor you should measure the big end i.d..

When I plan to use a rod I check the i.d.. Torque up the rod and measure it. For the bearing shells to have the correct crush, and thus held from turning, the rod i.d. should be 1.770" to 1.7695.


Re: New Rods [Re: Hillbilly bike] #486341 04/18/13 7:23 pm
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I see it; I don't like the way the bearing tab sets in the in the rod; don't look square, like it hasn't taken the seat in mill cut??easy fix; also the slight serrations in/on the bearing itself, easy fix,use your best hotrod judgment/experience, and you'll be fine; will this affect the longevity of the rod to crank pin relationship, doubt it, and, an easy fix. H.B, run the rods, stop fretting over it.(no pun intended.)I seriously doubt you break them. HB, from reading your post/questions, you are obviously NOT an idiot, or new to the go faster game; your best thinking got you this far, and your best thinking will get you down the mile, and back. H.B, All those years ago, Carrillo rods were affordable to us; not so much now; Ive never had a chance to inspect the Crower T120 rods, but have run there products in small block strokers with better than expected results.
as far as scrapping what you have , and starting over with steel rods,don't do it. Put what you have together; the rods are, according to you, and your machinist, to spec; use all the tools you have,( that grey matter that God gave you) think about what your doing and why,(is this going to make it better) stop second guessing yourself or you'll get old and grumpy like me. last post from me for awhile; the boat looks like it will float again this year, the walleye are waiting, and Im going to Erie for the summer. I will check in now and then; HB, put the damn thing together, and go have fun.
all my best
maxx

Re: New Rods [Re: phantom309] #486345 04/18/13 7:53 pm
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Originally Posted by phantom309
maxx, there are some rr guys doing this now and I have personally broke two done like that. it is a bandade and will help prolong the failure. The good thing is when it breaks the pin holds it togeather.Have a nourish now and going on 12 yrs but only ever run aluminum rods in mine. How about you guys call marino at map and ask him to get his forged rods with steel cap done.I will test them first and make sure there up for the test :-) oh outrigger bearing? not on the mainshaft ?


Wow Tim!! didn't think anyone was/is still doing that; although a bandade, and it will not stop massive hemorrhage; and, as you say, will prolong failure, and as long as we know that going in, we'll be ok smirk Im going have to take a week off fishing/screwing round and come watch you race, the Triumph. I am building an A65, but will always and forever, hold Triumph Twins dear to my heart. my first real bike was a 67 TT special:)I have been going down hill ever since; is been a hellove ride. Im not going to bug the boys at MAP at this point, but will do so in the future. Q. how long ago did MAP build a bike dubbed, KING MIDAS ?? get the answer to that question and that will give you some idea of how long of a ride its been for me. in any event, let me know when you'll be running at Mid Ohio, or some place I can get to in a days drive; I'll be there. in the mean time, take care, and all the best to you
maxx


Re: New Rods [Re: John Healy] #486369 04/18/13 10:02 pm
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Originally Posted by John Healy


Seeing you have the rod out of the motor you should measure the big end i.d..

When I plan to use a rod I check the i.d.. Torque up the rod and measure it. For the bearing shells to have the correct crush, and thus held from turning, the rod i.d. should be 1.770" to 1.7695.

Yup,it's 1.795 right now at room temperature.A few stokes of the file dressed up the serration interference.
Ok,it's almost all back together.... and you guys stop making me paranoid... grin


79 T140D, 96 900M Ducati ,2001 Sportster....On a bike you can out run the demons..
Re: New Rods [Re: Hillbilly bike] #486384 04/19/13 12:00 am
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DMiller Offline OP
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H.B. Thanks for posting the pics !! Dumb question, Are you cutting down the bearing tab or the serrations ? Did you notice any issues with the alloy distorting where the shells interfere? Mine had a spot where the tab deformed the alloy out into the big end bore causing reduced clearance at the edge of the relief on the end of the shells.

Re: New Rods [Re: DMiller] #486429 04/19/13 10:34 am
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I "adjusted" one serration,not the bearing . The interference is very slight and not enough to distort anything. I would say nothing bad would have come from this if I didn't take a second look.
I been through crap like this a few times with high end brand name auto performance parts like pistons....It's all wonderful until there's a problem...........
I relaxed my guard for a moment and those nasty gremlins stormed the gate to mess up my stuff. grin


79 T140D, 96 900M Ducati ,2001 Sportster....On a bike you can out run the demons..
Re: New Rods [Re: Hillbilly bike] #504755 09/04/13 9:30 pm
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Hi all,
I just wanted to bring this thread back to give an update on my issue with the R&R rods. My intent is not to trash suppliers, but to inform everyone of my experience. I'm in manufacturing as well, and I know it isn't easy to get everything right all the time... I ended up receiving a replacement rod that was only slightly better that the first one so I returned both rods and explained the issues to R&R. Several weeks later I received two new rods that were within about .004" of parallel over 6", much better than before, but bored badly out of square. One rod was bored out of square by about .02" over the length of the rod and the other was slightly better. After the third try, I told R&R I wanted my money back and they did give me a full refund without question. Again, I'm not trying to trash these guys, but I do question if they are capable of making a good rod after my experience with them. Many people probably receive a shiny new set or rods and assume they are good, but beware !! Hillbilly Bike, if you are reading this, please don't tear your race bike down again because of my comments !! I would feel terrible...

Re: New Rods [Re: DMiller] #504784 09/05/13 7:36 am
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I would have thought that a new rod would break just as easily as an old one if the big end seizes. This is, apparently, the most common reason for a con rod blow up. Good oil is a remedy.

Dave

Re: New Rods [Re: DMiller] #505080 09/07/13 9:05 am
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Just to add a couple of questions and some recent observations in reply to some points made by JH and HB on page 2.

When I stripped my friends Honda the other week and found the big end bearing had spun (possibly an oiling issue as out of 9 journals, only 1 maybe 2 were passable. The others were trashed. However on rod#3 the big end had a heap of play (surveer rod knock) I would estimate about 8mm of lift!

Now, when I removed the rod cap, the bearing shells (which had worn on the bearing surface as well as the crank journal) had wrapped snugly with the journal. They formed a perfect up, they were not welded to as I picked them straight off a cold crank. The bearing tabs hadn't worn away either! and the shell markings were still clear - after reading this thread and posted links I am now thinking the trouble has stemmed from poor "crush" (now that I know what crush is!)


Now, a question.

Like Hillbilly I have the R+R rods, They are currently with the crank balancer and I kinda wish I had bought the Thunder rods since reading this. Anyway I can't see everything being produced is crap.

The rods are supplied to wassel as I assumed just in a box, as when wassel distribute the rods they are in a thin cardboard box with no protection to the rod! (I contacted R+R about this as I was quite concerned and they didn't seem fussed)
Anyway, On the box states a torque setting of 50 ft lb (or 55 can't remember exactly as its been a while, but it is in the 50's) This seems very excessive even for an API bolt. I wasn't sure if this was an initial stress setting then retorque at something not as high or what?

I will follow the 5x torquing procedure, do I do these torque sessions with the rods (and shells) fitted to the crank? or do I clamp them in some soft jaws?


Hillbilly, your picture is very interesting and the serations shouldn't be anywhere near the shell. Since there is an overlap, wouldn't this affect oil control? I only asking because in my view if it isn't full bearing to bearing contact then there must be a gap?


beerchug
Re: New Rods [Re: Allan Gill] #505111 09/07/13 2:47 pm
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The serrations in these rods are causing a problem because they are using a tab type shell and they aren't relieveing properly for the tab... Imagine the serration as being centered about a theoretical split line. In other words if the serrations are .05" deep, then the serrations on the cap extend .025 above the split line and the serrations on the rod extend .025 below the split line. There will be interference in the areas of the bearing tabs of .025 plus whatever crush you have. I exlained this to R&R and their response was "This isn't our design".. In my opinion they should cut an extra notch in the rod and cap oposite the tab notches to relive this area on serrated rods when using these tab type shells. This could easily be done on a mill, or as Hillbilly did, carefully relieve the serrations in the area of the tab notches with a jewlers file.
This issue really has nothing to do with normal bearing crush... You should have normal crush provided you have a good set of shells and the big end ID when torqued measures 1.7695"-1.770". Bearing crush is very easy to measure on rods with flat parting lines. Not so on serrated rods...

Re: New Rods [Re: DMiller] #505180 09/08/13 12:16 am
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I've been watching this post with much interest and find it disheartening that DMiller recieved such poorly machined rods from R&R, they were on my short list of suppliers to consider.
Thunder Rods now sound like a more likely candidate or perhaps MAP's new 4340 steel rods for T120's which at $225 each is also starting to sound pretty good. Previous to this post, I wasn't considering steel rods due to weight differences between them and alloy, esp. considering the reciprocating small end wts. but in light of the fact that steel rods have practically an infinite life maybe I need to reconsider and with a dynamically balanced crank probably wouldn't notice any difference. I don't know where MAP gets his steel rods but they look suspiciously similar to a well known name brand, in which case I would tend to think the machining was accurate, guess I'll have to ask.

Does any body know the wts. of stock late model 650 alloy rods, most importantly the small ends...thanks...Mark

Re: New Rods [Re: MarksterTT] #505239 09/08/13 12:25 pm
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I ended up ordering a set of steel rods from MAP last week. I spoke to Marino on the phone and described my struggles to find a decent rod. He laughed and said he would only sell them to me if I check them with my mandrels when they arrive and call him back to let him know what I find. I have a feeling I may finally find a nice set of rods... The only problem is I already had my crank balanced for the R&R rods, so it will need to be balanced again. If anyone has a heavy flywheel for a unit 650 laying around that you want to part with, send me a PM.

Re: New Rods [Re: DMiller] #505300 09/08/13 9:20 pm
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Sounds like you may have your rod quest sorted, please let us know how they work out for you.

What does a balance job run out in your neck of the woods? Anyway, better to have found out about the rods sooner then later and your experience is an eye opener, thanks...Mark

Re: New Rods [Re: MarksterTT] #505319 09/08/13 11:37 pm
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TT,
The most recent dynamic balance job I had done was about $250.

To answer your earlier question, I had a crank balanced several years ago with stock rods and the balance sheet shows 98 grams for the small end weight. These were the thick stock rods that you will find as stock replacements. I'm sure this will vary some. The R&R rods weighed 126 grams at the small end. I'm not sure how the MAP steel rods compare, but I will let you know.

Re: New Rods [Re: DMiller] #505321 09/08/13 11:48 pm
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Interesting, I believe the MAP notes I have give 126 grams for his steel rods small end so might as well go steel..Mark

Re: New Rods [Re: DMiller] #505322 09/08/13 11:56 pm
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Sorry, I goofed, just checked the sponsors forum and MAP's T120 4340 rods weigh 115.1 grams small end, so they're lighter on the small end then the R&R alloys...that's pretty decent...Mark

Last edited by MarksterTT; 09/09/13 12:02 am.
Re: New Rods [Re: Allan Gill] #505430 09/09/13 8:11 pm
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Alan, our race bike has no oil problems at all. The oil pressure is exactly the same as when first started and there's no signs of oil in the combustion chamber. Redline 20/50 full synthetic is used.
To be honest I never questioned the rods in the first place.Only after I read about issues on here with R&R did I disassemble the engine to check it out.
I discussed the rod serrations with R&R and on the Speed Talk website,a place populated by many pro automotive engine builders.
This rod serration stuff is beyond my scope of experience.I deal better with touch and feel world.
What I do know is the engine I build with R&R rods has been to 7500 rpm 100 or more times and north of 7500 more than a few times.The bike set a record speed in it's class...I have no complaints about the R&R rods because they did the job required.


79 T140D, 96 900M Ducati ,2001 Sportster....On a bike you can out run the demons..
Re: New Rods [Re: Hillbilly bike] #505674 09/11/13 6:54 am
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And more on the R&R rods

On the serrations and the possible problem... I hand filed it...very carefully.I was more concerned with the rod big end "shrinkage" because the serrations settle in and can reduce rod bearing to crank oil clearance.I torqued and loosened the rod cap several times before having the crank ground to the rod bearing torqued in the rods. It seemed .002 clearance was a good number figuring the rods would tighten up about .0005 according to R&R..... To be honest I never checked the rods for straightness but the machine shop supposedly checked
R&R rods are used on a hell of a lot of race car engines.They have repeat customers.It is not unheard of for top engine builders to do hand fitting of some parts.
Would I buy another set of R&R rods? Maybe not considering the problems D Miller talks about.That is unacceptable and a sign of rushed production.
At the time of my build the MAP rods were not available...


79 T140D, 96 900M Ducati ,2001 Sportster....On a bike you can out run the demons..
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