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LSR Triumph build begins
#472351 01/14/13 4:40 pm
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I'm getting going on building the 650 unit engine for the 650cc Modified gas push rod class at Bonneville.We don't expect to break any records but build a reliable engine that's competitive.So it won't be too radical.
Going through my pile of connecting rods there's nothing that isn't suspect. A set of new R&R rods was not any more $ than NOS Triumph rods. MAP 10.5 tight quench forged pistons.Older pair of Sifton #390 cams .Kibblewhite(PM)valves,springs and retainers. Smith bros steel push rods.
A set of 1970 cases,the crank is getting machined to fit the rods and then off for stress relief and heat treating.The head is getting a proper valve job and that's about it.
Ignition is most likely Pazon with battery only.
An unwanted 71 OIF has modified lowered seating,and we have flat track Ceriani front forks.
And here's small expensive pile.

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79 T140D, 96 900M Ducati ....On a bike you can out run the demons..
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Re: LSR Triumph build begins
Hillbilly bike #472676 01/16/13 2:32 pm
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Hillbilly,

I run a Pazon system on my JAWBSA sprinter with total loss battery. I used to use a 5Ah gell battery which was good for 180 miles between charges. I now use a Shorai 12v 14Ah Lithium Iron battery which Pazon actually recommend. What a brilliant battery, so light I thought the box was empty when it arrived through post. I dont know how far it will last as I have not needed to charge it yet. A bit pricey but well worth it.


1949 BSA M33
1952 JABSA 652 Sprinter
2009 Honda VFR 800
Re: LSR Triumph build begins
Tim Lynch #472716 01/16/13 6:22 pm
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Originally Posted by Tim Lynch
I now use a Shorai 12v 14Ah Lithium Iron battery which Pazon actually recommend. What a brilliant battery, so light I thought the box was empty when it arrived through post. I dont know how far it will last as I have not needed to charge it yet. A bit pricey but well worth it.


I've been using one of these for the past two years, what a fantastic improvement over the old lead acids. One of these should be ideal for an LSR total loss application.


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Re: LSR Triumph build begins
Two Alpha #472753 01/16/13 10:12 pm
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Originally Posted by Two Alpha
Originally Posted by Tim Lynch
I now use a Shorai 12v 14Ah Lithium Iron battery which Pazon actually recommend. What a brilliant battery, so light I thought the box was empty when it arrived through post. I dont know how far it will last as I have not needed to charge it yet. A bit pricey but well worth it.


I've been using one of these for the past two years, what a fantastic improvement over the old lead acids. One of these should be ideal for an LSR total loss application.


The LSR bike will run a few minutes warm up and them make the run,3 miles.Maybe 6 minutes total. battery life from discharge isn't an issue. But any battery that's more durable (vibration) is good.


79 T140D, 96 900M Ducati ....On a bike you can out run the demons..
Re: LSR Triumph build begins
Hillbilly bike #473890 01/23/13 10:36 pm
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What mods were needed to install the R&R rods? You mention machining the crank. What kind of machining ? Did you have to notch the cylinders ? Thanks, Tracker

Re: LSR Triumph build begins
750 Tracker #474009 01/24/13 3:25 pm
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The rods are a race ready product out of the box. Balanced and machined to accept Triumph bearing shells and piston pin.The rods are torqued with .010 bearings in place,measured,then the crank journals machined to the desired bearing clearance.Side clearance "adjusted' as necessary.Haven't checked the cylinder clearance yet,will do it during one of several mock ups. I do believe clearance is no problem.


79 T140D, 96 900M Ducati ....On a bike you can out run the demons..
Re: LSR Triumph build begins
Hillbilly bike #475983 02/06/13 7:37 pm
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Got the crank back from heat treating.They call it "Gaseous ferritic nitrocarburizing".Then I got the crankshaft to the machine shop for balancing.They have state of the art digital balance machine and do a lot of racing V-8's. V-8's generally use a 50 percent balance factor........I checked up on balancing and 70-72 percent seems to be what's needed for this engine.The R&R rods are 15 grams lighter than stock late 60's rods.The forged pistons about 10 grams heavier than stock Hepolites....Crank was balanced with grinding on the bob weights only..020 was machined off the the flywheel for cam lobe clearance.






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79 T140D, 96 900M Ducati ....On a bike you can out run the demons..
Re: LSR Triumph build begins
Hillbilly bike #476195 02/08/13 6:09 pm
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Hello, newly registered on the forums, but i have enjoyed the wealth of information for some time now. Special thanks to John Healy for sharing his vast knowlegde.
I have been riding Triumphs for 40 years, street and track.
I want to have an original Bonneville crank heat treated, and the local treatment company would like to know the quality of the steel it is made of. I would think EN40B, but how does this translate into modern international standards?
Then they have questions about the depth of the treatment, they usually do .2 to .3mm(8 thou to 12 thou)on crankshafts. Is more better, the aim being to make the whole thing more rigid?
Thanks for your help.

Re: LSR Triumph build begins
LouisB #476199 02/08/13 6:38 pm
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I am not an expert on heat treating.This particular process was recommended by the local heating treating shop.They do highly stressed crankshafts for drags , circle track and tractor pulling .
This is the actual process...cost was $85 Lindure



79 T140D, 96 900M Ducati ....On a bike you can out run the demons..
Re: LSR Triumph build begins
Hillbilly bike #476204 02/08/13 8:31 pm
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Thanks for the link to Lindure Bodycote, this is very interesting as my local treatment company is also Bodycote.
They will know it is feasible on this crank.

Re: LSR Triumph build begins
LouisB #476266 02/09/13 8:09 am
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Triumph cranks weren't EN40.As far as I know they were EN16B.
The normal procedure is to ferritic nitrocarburise,only about 0.001" deep (Tufftriding).

Re: LSR Triumph build begins
Hillbilly bike #476489 02/11/13 9:13 am
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Pete, yes, EN16B. I was confused at the moment of writing.
I have to go back to the treatment company to discuss the depth of the treatment and what to expect from it. They do helicopter parts and probably dont know much about a 40year old british crank...

Re: LSR Triumph build begins
LouisB #476496 02/11/13 12:30 pm
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Bodycote I believe is a franchise heat treating process.The facility I used is also called Lindberg Heat treating.
I called first and talked to an engineer or tech rep who briefly explained what they can do for me.When I arrived in person with the crank,the same man explained in detail the process he recommended.He said it's "Tufftriding" by a different name and improved process. He mentioned they do all sorts of racing crankshafts including 4 foot long cranks for competition pulling tractors.They also do gears and industrial parts.
I have have to trust people who have done 100's of crankshafts to make the right decision.


79 T140D, 96 900M Ducati ....On a bike you can out run the demons..
Re: LSR Triumph build begins
Hillbilly bike #478726 02/26/13 8:09 pm
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My partner came over today and we got something done.No clearance issues with the R&R rods . Also had .020 shaved off the flywheel for cam lobe clearance. Sifton #390 cams won't degree in on the numbers on the recommended degrees duration at .113 lift.Short on opening and long on closing by about 3 degrees can't be adjusted out. and it's very close at .020 and .040 lift so call it good to go.
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Re: LSR Triumph build begins
#478754 02/26/13 11:27 pm
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Originally Posted by Allan Gill
Hillbilly, do I understand you correctly? Your cams are opening 3 degrees early and closing 3 degrees late?

If so, would this come right by the time the head is fitted and valve clearances set? Other thought is what radius of tappet face is the cam designed to work with? I have seen some cam makers use and modify A65 cams, I think this is used on some Triumph and Norton engines.


Alan,yes on the cam degrees.These are R 1.25 radius that have been resurfaced and probably a bit off .
Sifton said lift is measured at the tappet.I think the rocker ratio is about 1.1.....Experience with car engines says stock rocker ratio varies from rocker to rocker,Triumph likely does also.


79 T140D, 96 900M Ducati ....On a bike you can out run the demons..
Re: LSR Triumph build begins
Hillbilly bike #478803 02/27/13 11:43 am
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"R" radius tappets are 1-1/8" radius.
If your lobe centres are right (from the 0.113" lift readings),that's good enough.

Triumph rockers don't vary much,but the ratio changes slightly between zero lift and full lift,starting at less from zero lift.1-1/8:1,or 9:8 at mid-lift.

Re: LSR Triumph build begins
Pete R - R.I.P. #478805 02/27/13 11:52 am
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Yes,1-1/8. blush


79 T140D, 96 900M Ducati ....On a bike you can out run the demons..
Re: LSR Triumph build begins
Hillbilly bike #478807 02/27/13 12:39 pm
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I don't understand the use of .010 shells to measure the journal to rod shell clearance??? Seems to me that with .010 shells you would be crushing the shells and displacement of metal would be necessary?? What am I missing here??? Dick

Re: LSR Triumph build begins
Dick Harris #478827 02/27/13 3:09 pm
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.010 oversize bearing inserts have a smaller ID but the same OD as standard bearings.The rod is bench torqued with bearing in place,the ID measured,crank is then machined to fit with desired oil clearance.

I checked the piston to head and valve to piston clearance with clay. Valve to piston is all of .125....The piston to head is fine,and the quench band is about .050.with a.038 thick head gasket That a bit more than ideal...but no good comes out of pistons tickling the head.


79 T140D, 96 900M Ducati ....On a bike you can out run the demons..
Re: LSR Triumph build begins
Hillbilly bike #478950 02/28/13 8:58 am
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Originally Posted by Hillbilly bike
The piston to head is fine,and the quench band is about .050.with a.038 thick head gasket That a bit more than ideal...but no good comes out of pistons tickling the head.

Loctite 518 can be handy ,if you want to leave out the cylinder base gasket to reduce clearance.

Re: LSR Triumph build begins
Pete R - R.I.P. #478961 02/28/13 11:48 am
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Pete,I'm on the fence about tightening the quench too much.John Healy mentioned .035 ish may be to close for a long flat out run with a Nourish crankshaft.I'm using a reworked stock crank with after market rods...but this is a conservative racing engine build so the stuff inside shouldn't be jumping around too much.


79 T140D, 96 900M Ducati ....On a bike you can out run the demons..
Re: LSR Triumph build begins
Hillbilly bike #479064 03/01/13 12:15 am
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This photo shows the quench area. May not look it but the clay is just about .050 thick...The pistons are MAP 10.5 compression forged "tight' quench.

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79 T140D, 96 900M Ducati ....On a bike you can out run the demons..
Re: LSR Triumph build begins
Hillbilly bike #479079 03/01/13 2:10 am
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Squish bands are a double edge sword. Too little and the piston can hit the head, too much and you risk detonation. I think you will find that most people who have had any experience playing around with squish would consider .050" as too much.

5 pieces of "U" shaped solder (solid type), with the ends facing down, placed around the the piston will give you an accurate way of measuring the real squish. Turn the engine over just once.

The figure you will find for one of those engines is .032". I found this worked everywhere except at Daytona where at .032" we found contact and adjusted it to .035" when we went back to Daytona. We used various thickness copper base gasket to adjust the measurement.

Re: LSR Triumph build begins
John Healy #479217 03/01/13 7:38 pm
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Now it's .039 by eliminating the cylinder base gasket and juggling head gaskets.You mentioned previously that less than this may risk contact on long runs even with a stiff Nourish crank.This machine will run at the Ohio Mile and hopefully Bonneville...I tried the soldier and got the same measurements as the clay.Measuring thickness with a calipers is easier with the soft metal.The clay looks nice in the photo ...A guy once used a Tootsie Roll, you get a treat afterwards grin


79 T140D, 96 900M Ducati ....On a bike you can out run the demons..
Re: LSR Triumph build begins
Hillbilly bike #479838 03/04/13 8:27 pm
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0.039" sounds good to me,and still safe.
At least with Loctite and no gasket,it will stay that way.A gasket can always compress and reduce it slightly.

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