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Re: "History is a set of lies that people agree upon"
OriginalScott #446300 07/27/12 12:55 am
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Originally Posted by OriginalScott
"Popular history" is as you can probably guess, what the general public believes about past events. "Popular history" is effected by popular culture and media. It is usually loaded with nationalistic ideals and myths. A huge example of "popular history" that I see in almost all of my students is that Iraq had something to do with 9/11. As we get farther and farther away from the event this belief will take root firmly in the collective population of America. Much like the Japanese attack at Pearl Harbor or the landing of the Mayflower, 9/11 will have myths grow up around it that become beliefs central to the culture of America.


Ha! It's interesting what you find out when you write history for a living, reality that differs greatly from the "history" you're brainwashed taught in high school or college.


Josh
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Re: "History is a set of lies that people agree upon"
OriginalScott #446305 07/27/12 1:25 am
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Originally Posted by OriginalScott
Murray,

Much like the Japanese attack at Pearl Harbor or the landing of the Mayflower, 9/11 will have myths grow up around it that become beliefs central to the culture of America.



I'm pretty darn sure there was a Japanese attack at Pearl Harbor, and the Mayflower did actually land ..... ? I hope those aren't myths .....

Lannis


Do dogs see police dogs and think "Oh no it's the cops!"?
Re: "History is a set of lies that people agree upon"
Murray_B #446323 07/27/12 4:02 am
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Of course they happened. I think we had the pilgrim debate once before. As far as the attack at Pearl Harbor. There is the popular view that it was completely unprovoked. I will just say that FDR got exactly what he wanted, a motivated population that would embrace the war. I'm not talking conspiracy theories or any of that nonsense. There were more than just tactical reasons the Japanese attacked.

Events that shape our unique culture grow myths and heroes. In reality our heroes were just men and women who could have made different decisions. As a culture we need heroes and myths. That's all I'm saying.

To hear that history is a bunch of lies or is written by the winners is to not understand real scholarship and historiography. History is written by societies that give their people the freedoms to pursue academic pursuits without the goal of financial gain.

Scott

Re: "History is a set of lies that people agree upon"
Murray_B #446325 07/27/12 4:27 am
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To paraphrase my sister inlaw's mother, a retired public school teacher somewhere in Yankeeland:
"History class is not about teaching facts, it's about training good little citizens."
Not so much by outright falsehood, but by implication. To hear my grade-school teachers tell it, Henry Ford invented the automobile.


Stepping on others doesn't make you stand tall.

71 A65L "Zelda"
92 BMW K100rs "Gustav"
72 T120V cafe project "Mr. Jim"
72 T150V "Wotan"
Re: "History is a set of lies that people agree upon"
johnm #446339 07/27/12 8:47 am
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Originally Posted by johnm
Possibly not helpful but a good friend with heading toward 40 years of British bike engineering plus working in the workshop and sales part of NZ spares supplier told me of a trip he made to the UK in the early 80s.
In the basement of one old warehouse he saw a pile of Norton heads unmachined and partially machined a couple of metres high. ... They were basicaly hand made on a sort of "production line"...


Your friend may well have seen a pile of unmachined heads. The issues here are if the high-compression Combat head was milled twice and if it was a different casting.
I have done casting but not of vehicle parts and have done machining but I'm not a machinist. So looking at a Norton head I'm educated guessing it is a sand casting. It is unlikey to be done using the standard impression method because the head has too many channels. I'm going to guess the method of lost wax where they make a wax facimile of the head, put casting sand around it and pour in the metal. The wax disappears and the metal takes its place. After cooling the brittle casting sand is knocked off and the metal part remains. That part is then trimmed and machined to give the finished part.

The reason I'm quite sure the history books are wrong is that this new version was only invented within the last twenty years or so. For the previous twenty the Combat head was not only a different part but it was made from a different casting.

A small shop could and would take a standard finished head and send it out to be shaved or skimmed. This is common practice everywhere. The factory would not do this because there would be no need to machine it twice since they could mill it as a high-compresson head in the first place. I'm going to educated guess again that a standard head would need 70 or 80 thou milled away to get 10:1 static compression. That is one heck of a lot of metal to cut off each one of two thousand parts. Any manufacturer of any cast part would definitely change the wax form to make a part with less metal to remove in the first place. It is much cheaper and faster to remove 30 or 40 thou instead of 70 or 80. If Norton ordered thousands of standard heads for the Combat engines and then machined the heck out each one they deserved to fail.

So who knew more about making motorcyles, the people at Norton or some historian that probably can't even square a number?

My grandfather was a blacksmith and he actually made things by hand. Norton used lathes and mills and other equipment so the bikes were definitely made using machines. They were not, however, made using the assembly line method. They use what I call the station method of mass production. Companies like Volvo also used this method so it is not all that unusual to make things that way.

There is a fellow in New Zealand that goes by the name of Spencer and he used to post little gems of knowledge that are just not available anwhere else. People like that are the best source of real history but you must learn from them soon because they won't be around forever. After they are gone it will never again be possible to learn the facts about what actually happened back then.

Now, if someone like Mr. Spencer were to tell me I'm wrong about the Combat head then I would believe it.

Re: "History is a set of lies that people agree upon"
Murray_B #446343 07/27/12 9:48 am
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Originally Posted by Murray_B
The reason I'm quite sure the history books are wrong is that this new version was only invented within the last twenty years or so.


Motorcylist Illustrated, April 1974

[Linked Image]

http://www.payhost.net/motorcycling/acatalog/copy_of_Motorcyclist_Ill_April_1974.html

"The Combat motor uses the same pistons and a remachined head to achieve a cr of 10.2:1." - Pete Scatchard.

(So, where is Laughlin City, Alberta?)


Re: "History is a set of lies that people agree upon"
Murray_B #446347 07/27/12 10:06 am
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Perhaps Murray should read Dyno Daves treatise on Norton heads.
And learn something....

http://atlanticgreen.com/nhth.htm

Re: "History is a set of lies that people agree upon"
Murray_B #446348 07/27/12 10:08 am
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P.S. "Laughlin City, Alberta, Canada".

http://www.fanfiction.net/s/7001106/4/The_Prison_Within

Re: "History is a set of lies that people agree upon"
Rohan #446357 07/27/12 11:35 am
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More fiction laughing

Re: "History is a set of lies that people agree upon"
Murray_B #446449 07/28/12 1:03 am
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It would have been easy to make stock heads into combat heads without two trips to the mill, one day a week ( or whatever the machine shop foreman / gaffer requests)
the machinist takes off an extra 42 thou and marks the heads with a C for combat.



71 Devimead, John Hill, John Holmes A65 750
56 Norbsa 68 Longstroke A65
Cagiva Raptor 650
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Re: "History is a set of lies that people agree upon"
gavin eisler #446465 07/28/12 5:01 am
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Originally Posted by gavin eisler
It would have been easy to make stock heads into combat heads without two trips to the mill, one day a week ( or whatever the machine shop foreman / gaffer requests)
the machinist takes off an extra 42 thou and marks the heads with a C for combat.


A finished stock head has already been milled so removing the extra 42 thou should be the second milling operation. My objection to the myth is more about the total number of man hours to prepare at least a couple of thousand Combat heads one way or the other. At no time did I mean that milling a standard head for an high-compression engine was a job too difficult for the machinists. On the contrary, it is very likely that the Combat engine prototype(s) were made from off-the-shelf parts.

Don't forget that Norton also knows in late '72 that they must reduce the compression on all future engines sent to America to meet the NOx emission restrictions. This should have required a new lower compression 750 Commando engine with 8.5:1 or less compression. This new engine would be an addition to the 9.0:1, and 10.0:1 compression types. The low-compression 750 was the least powerful Commando ever made and the dealers in California whined loudly about it. It seems now that those dealers must have been completely crazy because "experts" now say the low compression 750 was never shipped to America because it was never made. Ask them yourself just in case I misunderstood.

Re: "History is a set of lies that people agree upon"
Murray_B #446468 07/28/12 5:23 am
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Originally Posted by Murray_B


This should have required a new lower compression 750 Commando engine with 8.5:1 or less compression. This new engine would be an addition to the 9.0:1, and 10.0:1 compression types. The low-compression 750 was the least powerful Commando ever made and the dealers in California whined loudly about it. It seems now that those dealers must have been completely crazy because "experts" now say the low compression 750 was never shipped to America because it was never made. Ask them yourself just in case I misunderstood.


Has this taken a twist that we missed ?

The 750 was certainly sold in 1973 with lower compression and milder cam.
The 750 engine design having been 'de-combatted' for 1973, to stop them exploding !!


Re: "History is a set of lies that people agree upon"
Murray_B #446478 07/28/12 8:32 am
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Originally Posted by Murray_B
Don't forget that Norton also knows in late '72 that they must reduce the compression on all future engines sent to America to meet the NOx emission restrictions. This should have required a new lower compression 750 Commando engine with 8.5:1 or less compression.


Why must you keep on insisting on this nonsense? A basic check of compression ratios of motorcycles sold in the US '73-on proves this wasn't so.
1973 Riders Handbook
http://britmoto.com/manuals/manuals/Riders_3.pdf


Originally Posted by Murray_B
This new engine would be an addition to the 9.0:1, and 10.0:1 compression types. The low-compression 750 was the least powerful Commando ever made and the dealers in California whined loudly about it. It seems now that those dealers must have been completely crazy because "experts" now say the low compression 750 was never shipped to America because it was never made. Ask them yourself just in case I misunderstood.


More muddled Murray fiction?

Reducing compression by half a ratio from 9:1 would have been comparatively easy-if it had actually been necessary to do so, all it would take would be a slightly thicker head gasket-no need for any new low compression engine variant.


Re: "History is a set of lies that people agree upon"
Murray_B #446511 07/28/12 2:05 pm
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Please clarify that in 1972 Norton was concerned about EPA regulations, that were going into effect in 1980. It wasn't until the 1978 model year that Triumph made their first effort, in conjunction with AMAL, to meet any EPA standards.

If you ever looked at raw head castings there is a lot of metal to be removed from the gasket surface. Another .040 in. could easily be removed with the same single pass used to produce the standard head. I doubt seriously that it would not require any more machine time. Most of the material could be removed on the roughing pass and a fe extra thousands added to the finish pass.


Re: "History is a set of lies that people agree upon"
Murray_B #446553 07/28/12 8:24 pm
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So, you're saying that my '74 T150, at 9.5:1, was illegal?
I had no idea! blush


Stepping on others doesn't make you stand tall.

71 A65L "Zelda"
92 BMW K100rs "Gustav"
72 T120V cafe project "Mr. Jim"
72 T150V "Wotan"
Re: "History is a set of lies that people agree upon"
Murray_B #446563 07/28/12 9:37 pm
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An extra 40 thou cut on a face is no big deal , as any factory worker would know it makes no sense to make two trips to the machine when one will do, I really doubt the Combat heads started as standard , got put on a shelf , and then returned to the machine to be tweaked, they would have been done in batches when the machinist was set for an extra 40 thou using bare castings.
Why are you so concerned about this?

Picture the scene,
Machine shop gaffer to bare head machinist.
Tuesday afternoon at the works, the gaffer goes round the shop with the message ,"Those 56876 say we need another 100 grenades, we need 100 combat heads for next months order "

Machinist
" Ahll set up t' mill , nuther 40 thou is it? thats a ?+£$%^ Gives the work order paper work an ahll set it up fer the mornin, should be good for the spares sales though.."

And by the miracle of speech 100 combat heads are created without two trips and a rest in between.

Last edited by gavin eisler; 07/28/12 9:48 pm.

71 Devimead, John Hill, John Holmes A65 750
56 Norbsa 68 Longstroke A65
Cagiva Raptor 650
MZ TS 250
The poster formerly known as Pod
Re: "History is a set of lies that people agree upon"
DavidP #446573 07/28/12 10:37 pm
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Originally Posted by John Healy
Please clarify that in 1972 Norton was concerned about EPA regulations, that were going into effect in 1980. It wasn't until the 1978 model year that Triumph made their first effort, in conjunction with Amal, to meet any EPA standards...

Nineteen-eighty?! Those regulations killed the American Muscle Cars and all other gasoline powered high-performance vehicles in late '72 just in time for the 1973 model year.

Jim Campisano in his book, "American Muscle Cars" described what happended. In the chapter entitled "1968-1974: Tin Soldiers and Nixon's Coming" he wrote, "...the 1968 supercars were amazing beyond belief." and "In 1970, the muscle car era peaked." Those were happy days for car guys.

Later on in the chapter he wrote about the dark days, "The downward spiral began in 1971 when General motors took the first big step by lowering compression ratios and detuning all its supercars in preparation for the imminent arrival of unleaded fuel. Immediately, power dropped noticeably. And new emissions control deviced siphoned away even more grunt. All of the titans of the previous year were being emasculated." [He did not mention NOx or unburned hydrocarbon restrictions but then the book is about cars and not the EPA.]

Finally he wrote, "By 1973, [model year I'm guessing] performance was a four letter word around detroit."

Any car guy over 55 and who was living in North America at the time should be able to confim Mr. Campisano's description of those dark days for you. Now will you stop trying to convince me that events I experienced personally never even happened?

Originally Posted by DavidP
So, you're saying that my '74 T150, at 9.5:1, was illegal?

Only a judge can determine that but without a modern catalyst it is hard to see how a gasoline powered street vehicle with 9.5:1 compression could meet the U.S. federal NOx emission restrictions. You should turn yourself in to the Pollution Police for punishment.

Re: "History is a set of lies that people agree upon"
Murray_B #446580 07/28/12 11:15 pm
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76 Guzzi had 10.5:1 compression.
Went like the clappers.

Guzzi were very proud of them.
(But the performance figures in the brochure were with the 'race kit' fitted !!).
Faster than a Z1 - on paper....

Re: "History is a set of lies that people agree upon"
Murray_B #446583 07/28/12 11:23 pm
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Originally Posted by Murray_B
Those regulations killed the American Muscle Cars and all other gasoline powered high-performance vehicles in late '72 just in time for the 1973 model year.
Any car guy over 55 and who was living in North America at the time should be able to confim Mr. Campisano's description of those dark days for you. Now will you stop trying to convince me that events I experienced personally never even happened?


Yes, CARS. clap laughing

MOTORCYCLES were not subject to EPA until 1978 http://www.bikersrights.com/epa/EPA_emmissionsHistory.html

"Motorcycle emission standards were first established in 1978 by the EPA and have remained unchanged since the 1980 model year. "

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