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Re: Tuning Your AMAL Carburetor [Re: Morgan aka Admin] #626616 11/21/15 6:11 am
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Reading the access Norton board, and was in able to find the pictures. However I noticed a reference to jetting the carb to archive an air fuel ratio of 14.x ( I'm assuming your trying to achieve the 14.7 AFR as used on modern cars with o2 sensors, mapped ignition and more importantly water cooled.

Let's start properly. You do not want to be aiming for an AFR of 14.anything, even modern cars wouldn't be on 14.7:1 if emissions regulations didn't state otherwise ( reducing CO and HC). However you want to be aiming at closer to 12:1

1) With the richer AFR the engine will run cooler ( cars have water cooling to keep the oil temperature between 60-80c - water temp is between 80-90c

2) you will gain in performance, you also need a slightly richer mixture as you come off idle - even modern cars will run a richer mixture under a change in throttle position until the rpms have stabilised. The carb can not make that judgement and is fixed at what ever fuel ratio is set for the throttle position, whether cruising or accelerating.

3) you also lessen the risk of detonation

There is nothing to gain by running an engine with such a lean fuel to air ratio. However the best thing you could do is using a emmitions reader probe up the tail pipe you can try and balance the jetting better, and done at various revs.

Reverting to the needle issue, it may well be a good idea to do exactly what John H has done, take a photograph and post it back here.

Just worth noting, I have used the longer/fatter 104 needle ( 4 marking rings) with it in the leanest position ( following some cam and head modifications I was running way too rich in the prescribed area) and not once did I have the problem as described.

Any further help is going to need to be backed up with some photos. Following the correction of this, I strongly recommend the carb be set up as following the tuning manual on the top of the first page.



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Re: Tuning Your AMAL Carburetor [Re: Morgan aka Admin] #626636 11/21/15 10:14 am
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John Healy Offline
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Owen
Your handle on the Norton Acess sums up this whole discussion in two words: Needing Air. With the Venturi blocked by a completely closed slide the instrument will not pass enough air andfuel through the inner transfer port to sustain idle. It is true that at idle slide settings, air does enter the idle mixing chamber through the larger transfer port under the slide. But this is a minor function, passing very little air and compensated for by the position of the pilot air screw. This larger transfer port is there to supply more fuel as the slide is lifted and transfer is made from the idle carburetor to the main carburetor.

Earlier version of this instruments didn't have the larger fuel transfer port under the slide.

Needing Air -Yes, air is required when you drop the slide to the bottom of the body. It is coming from some where, but I fear not through the transfer ports. You will not get enough to have the air/ fuel mixtures you are showing. Compare the orifice area created by the slide in a carburetor without a worn slide/body when the bike is set to idle. Compare that with the diameter of the trailing transfer port. Needing Air indeed. When you find out where it is coming from let us know.

While I have see a odd main jet fall out from not being tightened properly, I have never seen a main jet holder fall out. If one does get a wrench and tighten it properly. Your observations about the 928/104 needle are overly dramatic and reactionary and have no real life implications. The only times I have seen a needle become dislodge from the clip is when it is dislodged when offering the slide to the body. Then only when the needle is cocked enough to hit the bottom of the Venturi.


Re: Tuning Your AMAL Carburetor [Re: Morgan aka Admin] #626669 11/21/15 2:00 pm
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Of course the needle won't have any effect on idle, your effectively running a different carb at idle.

I should have been more accurate when I said "fatter" that was my slip up. However, I hope this photograph makes things a little clearer.

[Linked Image]

I would have measured the point of where the taper begins as well, but as you know more than everyone on the access Norton and Britbike forum I guessed you don't need the help.


( I won't be returning to this thread until the subject starts becoming useful again)


beerchug
Re: Tuning Your AMAL Carburetor [Re: Morgan aka Admin] #626676 11/21/15 3:48 pm
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John Healy Offline
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Quote
Photos of cut up things can follow when prioritized.


Unless you can demonstrate where the air is coming from I don't think this would be necessary. It is well understood that the slide clearance effects manifold vacuum and thus the vacuum signal on the fuel systems at low throttle openings. Slide clearance, like any "air leak." will vary the idle speed of the carburetor.

Tighten up the slide to the factory 0.0035" on your set-up and see what happens. Beside the carburetor no longer being able to idle, the increased manifold vacuum will make it difficult to lift the slide. No longer will you have a smooth throttle action. If you can lift the slide from a completely bottomed slide you have air volume of coming in somewhere to break the manifold vacuum.

Certainly you can tune the carburetor at low throttle openings by varying the slide clearance. AMAL had to do address just this problem when they increased the slide clearance 40 years ago by making changes to the pilot and needle jet. I don't see what you are doing as a practical solution to any problem the existing system couldn't handle.


Re: Tuning Your AMAL Carburetor [Re: Morgan aka Admin] #626732 11/22/15 2:01 am
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Rohan Offline
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Just for the record, for future readers, the '1/4"' longer 850 needles were mentioned here.
http://www.nortonownersclub.org/support/technical-support-common/carburettor-settings

Also, for future readers, just removing 2 needles from an 850 and non-850 Concentric produced this.
[Linked Image]
More than 1/4" difference, needles entirely as removed
(although these carbs wouldn't have been used in some years ?)
P.S. I would have polished them up if I'd known they'd photo so well.

I didn't explore yet how much further the 850 needle travels.
Never overlook the obvious when chasing the (non)obvious.....

Re: Tuning Your AMAL Carburetor [Re: Rohan] #626742 11/22/15 6:48 am
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Originally Posted by Rohan
Just for the record, for future readers, the '1/4"' longer 850 needles were mentioned here.
http://www.nortonownersclub.org/support/technical-support-common/carburettor-settings

Also, for future readers, just removing 2 needles from an 850 and non-850 Concentric produced this.
[Linked Image]
More than 1/4" difference, needles entirely as removed
(although these carbs wouldn't have been used in some years ?)
P.S. I would have polished them up if I'd known they'd photo so well.

I didn't explore yet how much further the 850 needle travels.
Never overlook the obvious when chasing the (non)obvious.....


That bottom needle looks longer at one end and shorter at the other.
Or maybe they're just not sitting aligned.


Amateur Loctite enthusiast.
Re: Tuning Your AMAL Carburetor [Re: Morgan aka Admin] #626757 11/22/15 9:59 am
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Artifice
First it is "Needing Air" and now to take his back there is an attempt at down right deception! frown

For those who don't see what is being offered here to prove Needing Air's 1/4" point look at where the needle clips are in these photographs.

One should be wary of taking away information from the link provided above. There are some glaring errors in some of the writers offerings.


Last edited by John Healy; 11/22/15 10:16 am.

Re: Tuning Your AMAL Carburetor [Re: Morgan aka Admin] #626761 11/22/15 11:13 am
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Rohan Offline
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As noted above, THESE NEEDLES (AND CLIPS) ARE EXACTLY AS REMOVED FROM WORKING CARBS.

So, depending on how the clips are set, the difference in needle lengths can be more than that previously mentioned 1/4".

And, as also noted, this (presumeably) is why AMAL noted that the 4 ring 850 needle is intended for 850 Nortons....

Re: Tuning Your AMAL Carburetor [Re: ] #626763 11/22/15 11:20 am
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We were, after all, exploring this missive....


Originally Posted by needing
Did you know...
The 928/104 4-ring needle originally/currently fitted to AMAL Mk1s on the 850 Norton Commando is so overlength by design that it interferes with the main jet unless the clip is set at the bottom (richest) position.

The result (in order of likelyhood if the clip is set in the other positions (especially the top position):
1. the needle will deform or even punch the centre out of the clip,
2. the needle may burr the main jet orifice with repeated impact.
Ta.

Re: Tuning Your AMAL Carburetor [Re: Morgan aka Admin] #626766 11/22/15 11:31 am
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Ok, your illustrated post about 1/4" longer needles was not about 1/4" longer needles, but instead was about clip positions.


Amateur Loctite enthusiast.
Re: Tuning Your AMAL Carburetor [Re: Morgan aka Admin] #626782 11/22/15 12:31 pm
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Originally Posted by triton thrasher
Don't know how much time you've got, but third post down on this pagehttp://www.accessnorton.com/needing-air-t22136-60.html#p294786 starts a saga that might help you see what Needing has been up to.
I was out of the country for the past week so only now started reading this thread. I looked at the thread on the Norton site but it seems Needing has deleted all of his photos making it more difficult to follow than my jet-lagged brain cares to deal with so I might have missed something relevant.
Originally Posted by needing
The carbies in the video have 0.004" slide/body clearance in airflow direction measured at 1.5mm skirt lift from venturi floor.
I couldn't find in this thread or the one on the Norton site a description of how you measured the clearance. However, I infer from the above wording that you wiggled the slide fore-and-aft and measured this amount of movement (with a dial indicator?). Unfortunately, this tells you very little about the actual clearance around which air will flow.

You wrote on the Norton site that "you are looking at almost new carby bodies with new chromed brass slides." Unless you measured it yourself (which I couldn't find described) you are relying on the manufacturer's claims for the slide diameter, and even a brand new carburettor without any wear that is overtightened will distort into an oval as is illustrated by the top photograph in:

http://www.britbike.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=576204#Post576204

As noted in that post, the distortion in the photograph is exaggerated for clarity, but it shows how overtightening reduces the fore-aft-clearance while increasing the side-to-side past which air will flow. A photograph in the following post shows one type of bore gauge needed to measure the bore diameter as a function of height. That, along with a micrometer to measure the diameter of the slide at various positions on it, are needed to determine slide/body clearance.

http://www.britbike.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=583633#Post583633

As John wrote, the fact your engine idles with the slide lifting screws removed is consistent with a too large slide/body clearance. Again, as John wrote, without that excessive clearance the engine would not idle, and certainly would not idle at 1000 rpm as does yours.

Re: Tuning Your AMAL Carburetor [Re: Morgan aka Admin] #626798 11/22/15 1:33 pm
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John Healy Offline
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Quote
We were, after all, exploring this missive....


With all due respect your pictures do nothing to further the exploration! All it does is to further confuse this discussion. It is nothing to be amazed at that two different Norton's would have the needle in different positions. Nor do we understand just how well these two different motorcycles performed using them. And I hope anyone with some common sense would realize that by putting the clip in different grooves raises and lowers the needle...

Quote
And, as also noted, this (presumeably) is why AMAL noted that the 4 ring 850 needle is intended for 850 Nortons....


Original quote that I responded to:
Quote
Doesn't the AMAL manual say that 850 needles should only be fitted to 850 stepped spray tube needle jet setups ??



I have been a student of all things AMAL for more years than I can count. I have been a business, and personal friend of the late Barry Johnston, who along with Jeff Binks designed the Concentric. To this point in my life have I ever read a piece of AMAL literature, or in long discussion I had with Barry have I ever seen where AMAL noted that the 4 ring 850 needle is intended only for 850 Norton. Certainly they recommended its use in the 850, but never did they limit its use to the 850. I can assure you others have used it in other applications.

I would be pleased if you could direct me to the AMAL manual that states that the 4 ring needle should only be used in the 850, and then only with the stepped spray tubes. I am always open to learn something new.


Re: Tuning Your AMAL Carburetor [Re: Morgan aka Admin] #626855 11/22/15 6:22 pm
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Thanks for playng 'Devil's Advocate'


Owen, Dr Falco is not by any measure playing devils advocate. Unless you have some undisclosed method of supply the volume of air normally supplied by the slide being open enough for the engine to idle, you are doing nothing but winding people up. Passing the amount of air required for the engine to idle through the small transfer port in the time available to do it would require the air velocity to approach, or exceed MACH 1. And that isn't going to cut it!

I suggest you stop playing a "cock tease" and either lay out what you are doing in detail, or disappear into the night. Were OK, and can wait until you patent your discovery and then be envious at how rich you became.


Re: Tuning Your AMAL Carburetor [Re: ] #626863 11/22/15 7:13 pm
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Originally Posted by needing
Your suggestion is a furphy perhaps based on maintaining the conventional wisdom.
In this case conventional wisdom has in its favor John's vast experience with AMAL carburetors (as well as my own half-vast experience). While I'm open to the possibility that John, I, the Mikuni manual, AMAL manuals, etc. all could be wrong about this, I would like to see details supporting your claims before concluding that. An accepted principle in science was stated by Laplace as "The weight of evidence for an extraordinary claim must be proportioned to its strangeness." That applies here.

Originally Posted by needing
Please remain open that AMAL Mk1 tuning can be developed beyond simply fitting the same NOS tosh and expecting an improvement.
If you take a look at the links in my previous post you'll see more than simply fitting NOS components to AMAL carburetors. You'll also see that even when fitting a NOS component I verify dimensions with my own measurements since sometimes items are out of specification.

Originally Posted by needing
the carby bodies are not distorted by overtightening.
And the measurements you've done to verify this are what?

Originally Posted by needing
I'll try to better explain each of my changes to each circuit by documenting the three phases and stages as test data proves their worth (or not).
Your thread on this topic on the Norton site was over five months ago. Are you saying that five months later you have no data about your changes that "proves their worth (or not)" but that you are confident you will have such data in the future? If so, I'll look forward to continuing this discussion after you've posted data.

Re: Tuning Your AMAL Carburetor [Re: ] #626865 11/22/15 7:26 pm
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Originally Posted by needing
By applying the Drag Equation to the needle and discounting the constants for any given throttle opening above idle you will find that 'Drag Force = Diameter'. ...

Every stage of each phase has a rationale! Hopefully that arouses only your interest!
Quite the contrary, I've now completely lost interest. The horizontal drag on the exposed portion of the needle has nothing whatever to do with the relative pressure drop above the needle jet that draws fuel up.

A photograph of a needle with reduced diameter (or oval cross section, or whatever) is not data showing that something works. I have in my collection an AMAL slide into which some back yard "tuner" filed a square slot. No doubt he had a rationale for doing that, but just because he had a rationale doesn't mean his modification had any merit.

Re: Tuning Your AMAL Carburetor [Re: ] #626873 11/22/15 8:24 pm
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Originally Posted by needing
Show me a picture of the square slot slide please. I may just be able to explain it for you.
One thing at a time. First explain (i.e. show data) why the modifications you have made work better than stock, why the bore isn't distorted, why the engine idles at 1000 rpm with the slides fully down, etc.

Re: Tuning Your AMAL Carburetor [Re: John Healy] #626880 11/22/15 9:03 pm
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Originally Posted by John Healy

I have been a student of all things AMAL for more years than I can count. I have been a business, and personal friend of the late Barry Johnston, who along with Jeff Binks designed the Concentric. To this point in my life have I ever read a piece of AMAL literature, or in long discussion I had with Barry have I ever seen where AMAL noted that the 4 ring 850 needle is intended only for 850 Norton. Certainly they recommended its use in the 850, but never did they limit its use to the 850. I can assure you others have used it in other applications.


Applications as recommended by AMAL ?

What would those gentlemen say about that the 850 4 ring needle was designed for use with the cut spray tube ?

Someone recently mentioned a link which showed some AMAL stuff, will see if I can backtrack to find it again.

Re: Tuning Your AMAL Carburetor [Re: Morgan aka Admin] #626881 11/22/15 9:23 pm
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I know its nothing like official AMAL literature,
but the intention is pretty clear in the 850 Commando Parts Book.

[Linked Image]

Re: Tuning Your AMAL Carburetor [Re: ] #626887 11/22/15 10:14 pm
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Originally Posted by needing
PM me if you would like to be assessed for receipt of a Non-Disclosure Agreement before I risk public exposure of my other research.
No thank you. I'm done with this sub-thread. Best of luck to you.

Re: Tuning Your AMAL Carburetor [Re: Morgan aka Admin] #626892 11/22/15 10:48 pm
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I have to laugh, you don't I suffer fools not at all. You have no idea who MM is. He is certainly no fool. I on the other hand, well that's another story. Please find another forum that might entertain you for a while. I think you ran your course here...


Re: Tuning Your AMAL Carburetor [Re: Morgan aka Admin] #626901 11/23/15 12:09 am
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An eleven year old post... wow, who would have thought.

I know that matched needles and seats are best, all those annular calculations just make my head spin. It's a wonder my bikes run so well. Simple by choice.

Don in Nipomo

Re: Tuning Your AMAL Carburetor [Re: Morgan aka Admin] #626902 11/23/15 12:12 am
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"Needing"----I think that you are "needing" some instruction in diplomacy.
I am sure that I know less about carburation than John Healy and Magnetoman and probably yourself.
I do however know a little bit about people and you have managed to piss off two of the most respected and even minded people on this board.
Not easy to do but a capability doubtful in its desirability.

Re: Tuning Your AMAL Carburetor [Re: ] #626913 11/23/15 5:58 am
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Bloody hell! All this drama to make a simple AMAL work! I wonder if Binks, Brown and Barlow, and Amac knew what they were unleashing!
Pity the poor buggers with " sophisticated " Mikunis, Keihans, etc.
Since 1970, with Amals, from old side floats, TT 9, and Mk1 and 2, on petrol and dope, I just did what the cognoscenti of the time said, and with available AMAL parts, and the bloody things worked! And no effing degree in physics, either!

Re: Tuning Your AMAL Carburetor [Re: ] #626945 11/23/15 1:34 pm
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Originally Posted by needing
Hi Triton Trasher.
Bring a barrow, it seems!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tWAsHoDIlGk :bigt

Another tuning tip for Ya'all.
My throttle grip rotates through an arc of almost 64 mm.
My throttle slide opens 32 mm from seated.

I marked the throttle slide opening positions on the throttle grip housing at 1mm movement = 2mm arc. Riding on a straight flat road (yes,on a 25 degree day with 42% humidity and atmospheric pressure of 1012 millibars smile ) allowed me to correlate my smaller throttle openings to my engines approximate RPMs.

The result: yep, at 3500 rpm my bike is just coming onto needle parallel and needle jet fuel flow.
[Linked Image]

Ta.
Owen.



This doesn't get any better, someone has sent you on a wind up, yes?

I give you 100% for enthusiasm


beerchug
Re: Tuning Your AMAL Carburetor [Re: Triless] #626947 11/23/15 1:48 pm
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Originally Posted by Triless
Bloody hell! All this drama to make a simple AMAL work! I wonder if Binks, Brown and Barlow, and Amac knew what they were unleashing!
Pity the poor buggers with " sophisticated " Mikunis, Keihans, etc.
Since 1970, with Amals, from old side floats, TT 9, and Mk1 and 2, on petrol and dope, I just did what the cognoscenti of the time said, and with available Amal parts, and the bloody things worked! And no effing degree in physics, either!

I agree, when I rebuilt the carbs for my triple I just went with what was standard, clip in the middle position a/f screws 1 1/2 turns out and it runs just fine and this is with a 3/1 exhaust


When given the choice between two evils I picked the one I haven't tried before
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