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Oil Pressure Warning Light....
#371846 05/06/11 9:03 am
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Hmmmm

A week or so ago, I started to notice that after a ride in the current warm weather the oil light was starting to flicker on the Tr65 (1981 650) when I came to a standstill. Just running a bit hot I thought...

I'd been out with the local Triumph Owners for a scampi supper at a country pub last night and riding back in the dark I noticed the light was flickering at higher revs too so I stopped and checked the oil level (nearly full), the return to the OiF was pumping pretty well and also that the connector to the pressure switch seemed good, so i rode on. On the last few hundred yards, the light was pretty much on full time so I pulled off the connector thus extinquishing the light and curing the problem wink... actually I switched off the engine and coasted down the hill to home.

Once back at base I changed the oil, whipped off the base of the Oif tank and checked the (paper) filter which was pretty clean having been changed only 800 miles ago. I also removed out the warning sender and SRM pressure release valve and couldn't see any problems. So I refilled the tank, kicked it over until the light went out and fired her up. the light stayed out for a few minutes until she'd started to warm up and then began flickering again getting steadily brighter until I could stand it no more and called it a night...

Very concerning, especially on a fully rebuilt engine (with new cylinder sleeves, reground crank, new cams etc) engine with only 7000 on it which has had sub-1000 mile oil changes (quality 20-50 mineral). Having exhausted the obvious, I wonder if the oil pump is worn? I've got dozens of recipts from the previous owner regarding the rebuild, but there isn't one for an oil pump. Given that the return flow seems okay (a nice pulse) I wonder if the feed side is worn out. On the up side, there's no nasty knocks or rattles, though I noticed she does smell a bit rich on the exhaust.

Anyone got any thoughts?

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Re: Oil Pressure Warning Light....
Andy Zarse #371850 05/06/11 9:29 am
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You could try a good quality gauge in place of the sender and see what the actual pressure is. If the pressure release valve is ok then how about checking the crank oil seal? The crappier ones tend to split. I had one marked "SDA" that developed a big split. Get one marked "PW". The oil pumps are practically immortal but worth cleaning it out and maybe reseating the balls with a tap from a light hammer via a wide flat punch (brass body pump only). Big end shells can cause low pressure but this is very unlikely as these bearings are the longest lived of all bearings in the engine. Mine survived the split seal unscathed.

Adding to your joke about disconnecting the switch. I have a '67 that doesn't have one so have no oil pressure worries!

Dave

Last edited by dave jones; 05/06/11 9:30 am.
Re: Oil Pressure Warning Light....
dave jones #371857 05/06/11 10:03 am
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Thanks dave!

The fact that the problem has manifested itself reasonably suddenly leads me to think it's something like an oilseal or pump rather than a worn out engine. I hope...

Any mileage in pulling off the timing cover? what should I be looking for?

PS Seen your location and the T'bird was sold via the Portsmouth main dealer in 1981 and lived in Waterlooville for its first 22 years, then in Southsea until i moved it up the road to Sussex. I'm down there later today to get a new back tyre fitted at Russ's Tyres in Claybank Road as I noticed when changing the oil that the Avon Roadrider rear tyre with 3000 miles on it has split wide open in the centre groove and needs to be replaced. Apparently there was a bad batch made two years ago. Is it just me or is everything crap these days? smile

Last edited by andy zarse; 05/06/11 10:10 am.
Re: Oil Pressure Warning Light....
Andy Zarse #371903 05/06/11 5:07 pm
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The only pain when removing the timing cover is that you have to reset the timing after. You could just mark the platye and cover. Have you got electronic ignition?
When you have the cover off there are two seals. One is for the ignition and one for the crank. The crank seal faces the opposite direction to the ignition seal and is held by a circlip. You should be able to see the condition of the crank seal without removing the circlip but it is easy enough to do with a decent set of circlip pliers. Be careful not to damage it! The crank seal should be fitted with the spring side away from the crank. If you can see the spring when yopu take off the circlip it is the wrong way round. If you take off the oil pump to clean it, etc, then use a new gasket with no goo when you replace it and do the nuts up evenly. Torque setting for these nuts is only 5 lb/ft, that's fairly light hand pressure on a short spanner that you would use on a small nuts like these (best to use a torque wrench, of course).

Pretty unusual for there to be anything wrong with the pump unless there is dirt in it. This is more likely on the return side where there may be small particles of crud coming out the engine.

Pressure release valve definitely ok?

Dave

Last edited by dave jones; 05/06/11 5:08 pm.
Re: Oil Pressure Warning Light....
Andy Zarse #371910 05/06/11 6:56 pm
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Originally Posted by andy zarse


The fact that the problem has manifested itself reasonably suddenly


Makes it likely the sending unit has gone South. They do that. I suggest following Dave's first suggestion and test the oil pressure with a gauge before ripping into things.


Bob, Lifetime bike: '71 T120R, bought in '71 at Ken Heanes, England.
Re: Oil Pressure Warning Light....
Andy Zarse #372004 05/07/11 4:55 pm
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Hi Andy,

+1 for the pressure gauge test.

That said, there's one other check you can make - undo the sump plug/plate and tip any oil out of/off it very slowly. If you're left with a finely-grained grey or silvery deposit, 'fraid that could well be from the big-end shells, in which case you know what you have to do ... frown

That test was passed on to me by Les Williams, factory triple guru and founder of the eponymous business; yes, I did find the grey deposit and it cost me a lot of money to fix. cry By definition, it doesn't wholly rule out the necessity of a pressure test, but only if you don't find the dreaded grey/silvery deposit. frown

Hth.

Regards,

Re: Oil Pressure Warning Light....
Stuart #372006 05/07/11 5:15 pm
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Thanks Stuart.

I immediately took off the sump plate from the frame spine and don't recall seeing any silvery sludge, in fact it all looked pretty clean as was the paper oil filter. Which is hopeful I suppose...

Out of interest, when I do the test what pressures should I be looking for, both hot and cold?

Re: Oil Pressure Warning Light....
Andy Zarse #372048 05/08/11 12:30 am
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Hi Andy,

Originally Posted by andy zarse
what pressures should I be looking for, both hot and cold?

Imho, cold pressures don't really mean a lot, simply because they always look better than hot pressures, and hopefully your engine spends more time hot than it does cold. wink

According to the Triumph workshop manual, "Normal running ... 60 lb./sq.in.", "Idling ... 20/25 lb./sq.in."; from the L.P. Williams o.p. gauge instructions, he considered "normal running" to be above 3,500rpm.

Btw, the o.p. switch thread in your bike's timing cover is 1/8"NPS (National Pipe Straight); for a temporary connection to a gauge, you can probably get away with NPT (National Pipe Taper) and a sealing washer.

Hth.

Regards,

Re: Oil Pressure Warning Light....
Andy Zarse #372066 05/08/11 7:46 am
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When running hot, the oil pressure light comes on on all the TSX and TSS-AV but not so far as I can recall the TR65 and TR7T. A quick blip of the throttle and the light dissapears. Reg Allen's, who service my bikes, doesn't use 20w/50 but a 15w/?? Morris oil. I think that has something to do with it but have no concerns as am hapy to assume they know what they're doing.


1983 TR65T Tiger Trail
1983 TSSAV
1983 TSX
1983 TR65 Thunderbird
1982 TR7T Tiger Trail
Re: Oil Pressure Warning Light....
Stuart #372127 05/08/11 4:03 pm
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Originally Posted by Stuart
+1 for the pressure gauge test.

I agree wholeheartedly. The gauge is the only test to perform at this stage. It is the only true measure of oil pressure, which in turn is the only true measure of those parts of the engine that determine oil pressure. Take the pressure gauge reading and see how it behaves. That will THEN tell you where to look for follow-up steps.


Originally Posted by Stuart
That said, there's one other check you can make - undo the sump plug/plate and tip any oil out of/off it very slowly. If you're left with a finely-grained grey or silvery deposit, 'fraid that could well be from the big-end shells, in which case you know what you have to do ... frown

IMHO this is very bad advice. 1) It violates Dr.Healy's first law of never remove the sump plug. 2) It plays on the worst fears of the OP and causes undue hysteria/ concern/ anxiety. 3) The amount of 'silver powder' cannot be quantified. A test with no quantifiable data is not a test.


Just my 2 cents. :bigt


Don't hide 'em, Ride 'em !!

RF Whatley
Cornelia, GA
Re: Oil Pressure Warning Light....
Stuart #372128 05/08/11 4:12 pm
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Originally Posted by Stuart
Btw, the o.p. switch thread in your bike's timing cover is 1/8"NPS (National Pipe Straight); for a temporary connection to a gauge, you can probably get away with NPT (National Pipe Taper) and a sealing washer.


It's only going to be in place for about 2 minutes. Simply screw the gauge in not even "hand tight", but just snug. So what if it leaks? One or 15 drops of oil is not going to ruin the reading. A quick reading with warm oil at 3500 RPM is all you care about.

DO NOT put it in tight enough to distort the threads in the timing cover.

:bigt


Don't hide 'em, Ride 'em !!

RF Whatley
Cornelia, GA
Re: Oil Pressure Warning Light....
Andy Zarse #372129 05/08/11 4:29 pm
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Originally Posted by andy zarse
Very concerning, especially on a fully rebuilt engine (with new cylinder sleeves, reground crank, new cams etc) engine with only 7000 on it which has had sub-1000 mile oil changes (quality 20-50 mineral). Having exhausted the obvious, I wonder if the oil pump is worn? I've got dozens of recipts from the previous owner regarding the rebuild, but there isn't one for an oil pump. Given that the return flow seems okay (a nice pulse) I wonder if the feed side is worn out. On the up side, there's no nasty knocks or rattles, though I noticed she does smell a bit rich on the exhaust.


Calm yourself, brother.

While good oil pressure is important, this issue is usually indicative of a minor flaw that can usually be fixed very fast and very inexpensively. The WORST thing you can do right now is freak-out and start taking things apart with no idea of what you're looking for. If you have an extra 1000 in the bank account just sitting there doing nothing then be my guest, but 99% of the time it is not required.

You simply need to apply an oil pressure gauge (hardware store variety) with a 0-100 PSI reading in place of the oil light sending unit.

• If the gauge shows no pressure at any RPM, then it is most likely that the crankshaft oil seal has been installed backwards (mechanical error), the oil seal has inverted (cheap, non-spec oil seal), or has popped out of the case (bad C-clip).

• If pressure builds up as normal and shows a 25 to 80 PSI sweep, then the electrical sender is bad. You have simply been lied to by the oil light. They don't call them "idiot lights" for nothing! laughing

PS. Oil pumps do go bad, but I've never seen it. And I worked at one of the largest Triumph dealerships in the US. Oil pumps typically only need the balls to be reseated, and then are good to go.

Your oil filtration system concerns me more than your oil pump. But that's another story for another day.


All the best. :bigt


Don't hide 'em, Ride 'em !!

RF Whatley
Cornelia, GA
Re: Oil Pressure Warning Light....
RF Whatley #372250 05/09/11 11:52 am
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Thank you one and all. I think I've got to the bottom of it, and as Mr Watley rightly says, they're not called idiot lights for nothing. smile

I also own this vehicle, a Commer PB campervan, the engine of which was made in Coventry in 1969.

[Linked Image]

On a hunch I removed its oil preesure sender and lo and behold it fits the Triumph. Checking the theoretical oil pressures for a Commer engine it seems the profile is similar to the Triumph.

It works! The light stays out! I realise I still need to do a proper pressure check and I have a Ferguson TE20 tractor made in Coventry in 1948 and which has a mechanical pressure guage with the same pipe thread size...

Ah for the love of ragged old Coventry iron...

Last edited by andy zarse; 05/09/11 11:54 am.
Re: Oil Pressure Warning Light....
Andy Zarse #372268 05/09/11 2:07 pm
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Nice house, is this your home?


*******************
Run `em...
*******************
1969 T120
Re: Oil Pressure Warning Light....
Andy Zarse #372275 05/09/11 2:55 pm
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+1 for nice house!

Looks similar to the front entrance of the standard build RAF WW2 officers' mess but they didnt have 3 floors!


mike
Member #: 147
1960 T120 Bonneville
1999 H*%^a VFR 800 FI
V4 Triton Project (still keeping me sane (Ha-Ha!))
Re: Oil Pressure Warning Light....
Ducknaldo #372277 05/09/11 2:56 pm
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Correct Mike, it's actually outside the Officers Mess aat RAF Marham in Norfolk, home of several Tornado squadrons.

Last edited by andy zarse; 05/09/11 2:58 pm.
Re: Oil Pressure Warning Light....
Andy Zarse #372291 05/09/11 4:26 pm
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Originally Posted by andy zarse
On a hunch I removed its oil pressure sender and lo and behold it fits the Triumph. Checking the theoretical oil pressures for a Commer engine it seems the profile is similar to the Triumph.

It works! The light stays out! I realize I still need to do a proper pressure check and I have a Ferguson TE20 tractor made in Coventry in 1948 and which has a mechanical pressure guage with the same pipe thread size...


These sender units turn ON/OFF at about 5 PSI, so the light going out is not any kind of proof at all, when what you really want to see is 60+ PSI.

However, it's VERY good indeed that the outlook has brightened, but as you said, you are not "out of the woods" yet until a gauge is fitted and a proper pressure reading made.

All the best! :bigt


Don't hide 'em, Ride 'em !!

RF Whatley
Cornelia, GA
Re: Oil Pressure Warning Light....
RF Whatley #372363 05/09/11 10:01 pm
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Hi Richard,

Originally Posted by RF Whatley

Originally Posted by Stuart
there's one other check you can make

IMHO this is very bad advice. 1) It violates Dr.Healy's first law

Originally Posted by Stuart
That test was passed on to me by Les Williams, factory triple guru and founder of the eponymous business;

While I wouldn't disparage John's knowledge and experience in favour of Les's, I suspect that John at least knows of Les, so I'd be surprised if he fully-endorses your opinion.

Les might not be so well-known on your side of the Pond but that doesn't change the fact that he spent over twenty years in Meriden's Experimental Department and its NVT successor, working for Edward Turner then Bert Hopwood and Doug Hele. Les is probably most associated with the triples because not only he was E.D. foreman in the heyday of the factory racers but because of his subsequent achievements with the best-known one - 'Slippery Sam' - and the business he founded and ran for many years. However, by definition, you don't spend that long in the E.D. without having a lot to do with twins, singles and probably even the Tina.

Originally Posted by RF Whatley
2) It plays on the worst fears of the OP and causes undue hysteria/ concern/ anxiety.

confused

Originally Posted by RF Whatley
3) The amount of 'silver powder' cannot be quantified.

Who said it cannot be quantified? If the crank has started scraping the soft metal off the big-end bearings, there will be a hell of a lot more than a few specks.; it's unmistakeable, amhik. cry

Hth.

Regards,

Re: Oil Pressure Warning Light....
Andy Zarse #372366 05/09/11 10:14 pm
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Hi Andy,

Originally Posted by andy zarse
Officers Mess aat RAF Marham in Norfolk,

Many years ago, the Trident & Rocket 3 Owners' Club held its AGM in the Officers' Mess at Duxford. Looks exactly the same.

Originally Posted by andy zarse
I have a Ferguson TE20 tractor made in Coventry in 1948 and which has a mechanical pressure guage with the same pipe thread size

Just a leetle note of caution - the NP threads were some new-fangled import from the US, around the same time as the British automotive (then!) industry decided to adopt US threadforms. Certainly at 1/8", NP and BSP are very close - 27tpi and 28tpi respectively. I'm not saying a '48 Fergie won't have NP threads, just there's room for error ... and Triumph timing covers are expensive ...

Hth.

Regards,

Re: Oil Pressure Warning Light....
Stuart #372419 05/10/11 7:42 am
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Stuart, you're right, it's a BSP thread on the Fergie, you'll be pleased to know I didn't force the issue smile So I still need to do the pressure test.

With regard to the silvery sludge, and to settle the debate, the fact of the matter is that when I took the sump plate off there wasn't any sludge of any hue, thus there's nothing to quantify in any event! wink I realise it's slightly "Schrodinger's Cat", but I would hope (and non-quantifiably pray) this means the big ends aren't eating themselves.

Allow me to digress for a moment. I bought the Commer for £300 off fleabay in a right old state. When I did the first oil change I found all sorts of nasty metalic grit, sludge and curly swarf stuck to the sump plug magnet, some pieces were over half an inch long. I was dismayed and things looked like they were heading in only one direction, but given I needed her on the road asap I flushed her out with Wynns, filled her up with fresh 20/50 and set off to the MOT centre. 10,000 miles and ten years later - including eight trips to France for the Le Mans 24 hour race - she's never let me down, runs sweet as a nut and burns virtually no oil. We once stopped on a weighbridge on the way back from Le Mans and she weighed 2.5 tonnes all up, we'd come home in heat of 105f and flogged the 1725cc ironhead mercilessly. I've had the head off to regrind the exhaust valves and replace a gurgling head gasket and the bores are immaculate. I know the folk at Meriden probably had more exacting tolerances than their colleagues just down the road at Ryton or Banner Lane, but it does go to prove these old Coventry machines can take an amazing amount of stick before they go bang.

She's also for sale if anyone is interested. frown

Re: Oil Pressure Warning Light....
Andy Zarse #372452 05/10/11 12:33 pm
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After all the drivel we have written in response to Andy's problem congratulations go to Btour for being the first to suggest the change of sender!
Dave

Re: Oil Pressure Warning Light....
dave jones #372526 05/10/11 6:19 pm
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Hi Dave,

Originally Posted by dave jones
After all the drivel we have written in response to Andy's problem congratulations go to Btour for being the first to suggest the change of sender!

Yep, I did that to a T160 a few months before I found all the grey sludge on the sump plate. My (feeble now) excuses consist of: o.p. gauges were hard to get hold of then (Les Williams not having developed his kit); even if you could get hold of a gauge, there wasn't any obvious place to attach it to the engine; neither I or anyone I knew, knew anything about NP threads; we didn't have the internerd to consult; etc., etc. It's called You Live And Learn.

The Triumph and BSA o.p. 'warning' light is nothing of the sort; it's a "Ha! Your engine's f**ked" light. All threads like this can do is persuade an o.p. not to turn to suicide or pyromania (at least not initially) and that the last thing he does is simply replace the switch.

Hth.

Regards,

Re: Oil Pressure Warning Light....
Andy Zarse #372530 05/10/11 6:33 pm
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Hi Dave,

Thank you for that. And congrats to you also, for being the first to suggest checking the oil pressure. smile


Bob, Lifetime bike: '71 T120R, bought in '71 at Ken Heanes, England.
Re: Oil Pressure Warning Light....
Andy Zarse #372540 05/10/11 7:04 pm
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Just to add another perspective, my 1972 T120 has a somewhat fresh overhaul (pistons, rings, bearings, crankshaft) and has been showing a steady 62 psi reading while cruising at 60 or so mph, for about a year now. Suddenly, on Saturday, the indication started creeping down, 60, 55, 50, 45, and 40 when I shut it off in the garage. At idle, the gauge, which normally reads about 15 psi at idle, is now indicating Zero. I use a "SunPro" oil pressure gauge rather than a sending Unit and light.

I removed the sump plug, drained all the oil, and inspected the main filter, all are spotless. Removed the timing cover, crankshaft seal still new and secure, with nothing unusual found. Removed the PRV, and found that the spring had been grinded at one end on a grinder. (I may have done this previously to correct high oil pressure). Still does'nt explain why it would show a steady 62 psi for that period of time, then all of a sudden lose 20 psi.. Will install a new spring, possibly a new gauge, and carry on I guess....


If you love it, let it go. If it comes back, you've highsided!"
2016 Triumph Bonneville America LT
1971 Bonny
Re: Oil Pressure Warning Light....
Andy Zarse #372541 05/10/11 7:06 pm
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A little off subject but not too far. How does the bulb come out of the light, don't want to break anything by prying something that doesn't come apart. I can't seem to find my manual after I moved. Thanks for the help


1969 Triumph Bonneville T 120
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