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Are later A65 shift cam plates really better? #355763
01/31/11 4:03 am
01/31/11 4:03 am
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 4,420
Santa Barbara, California
KC in S.B. Offline OP

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KC in S.B.  Offline OP

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I see that the later trans cam plate that the quadrant pawls engage has a re-inforcement strap welded across the slot....(not sure which gear change slot). I assume this was an addition to prevent some kind of distortion. What was the idea, and did it actually help? I'm trying to decide if I should find one to use. My A50 is hard to shift into 3rd. Once in 3rd, it seems to go to 4th OK. I'm more successful at higher RPM also.... whatever that means. The weird thing is when it won't upshift to 3rd, reaching down and pulling sharply will most often work. I am not sure what the difference is between the toe and the hand, but most likely the hand is a sharper movement. (especially when pi**ed off!) I plan to replace the plate, and maybe the whole trans, but would sure like to know what causes this headache! The trans seems to be Okay otherwise as far as noise and staying in gear.


Down to 1 BSA, 2 Triumphs, 1 '56 Chevy
Oops,.. add 1 '65 XLCH
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Re: Are later A65 shift cam plates really better? [Re: KC in S.B.] #355811
01/31/11 2:08 pm
01/31/11 2:08 pm
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 4,231
argyll. scotland, uk
gavin eisler Online content
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As a generalisation the later the cam plate the more robust it will be, the strap was added to prevent flexing.
They were all stamped out pretty crudely and unless severely worn can be improved by filing dead flat and polishing around the selector fork tracks and change plunger windows..
Often the notched perimeter, where the spring loaded plunger rubs, will be badly grooved and the plunger point burred over. The plunger spring is very stiff and causes a heavy change with accelerated wear particularly if the clutch has been dragging.

This wear can be welded up and reground and polished.

Cutting two turns off the plunger spring will give a much lighter change with less future wear.

A 1/4 " dowell in a drill chuck , split with 400 grit wet and dry will do the business for cleaning up the cam plate selecter tracks.

Your upshift to 3rd problem may be a simple case of the change mech not recentering properly, tweaking the return spring may help if the rest of the box is not too worn.Although minimising all friction in the sytem will definetley help it may not be needed.
unless you are planning on pulling the whole tranny , some experimenting with the change return spring which is relatively easy to get at , is worth a try first .
Pod


71 Devimead A65 750
56 Norbsa 68 Longstroke A65
Cagiva Raptor 650
MZ TS 250
The poster formerly known as Pod
Re: Are later A65 shift cam plates really better? [Re: KC in S.B.] #355816
01/31/11 2:34 pm
01/31/11 2:34 pm
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 7,813
Seattle
Alex Offline

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Seattle
Quote
Are later A65 shift cam plates really better?


The short answer is yes, but, as usual, it's more complicated than that. There are actually three different camplates: Early, up to '56 which are...I think...1/8" thick and incorporate a bushing on the camplate. And then what I would call the intermediate camplate which is the same thing except with the strap for stiffening up to '69. BTW, these interchange with Triumph 500 camplates. Then the last of the cam plates eliminated the bearing boss and became thicker...3/16" I think. The inner gearbox cover was also changed to accomodate this plate. But...much more importantly, the paths for 3rd gear were beefed up to provide better engagement. The earlier camplates hold 3rd gear in with a very sharp peak on the cam plate and as this gets worn down, there is less and less engagement. Some of this can be alleviated by shimming the gears to get more engagement of 3rd...but a new or later camplate is the real solution.


A smattering:
'53 Gold Flash
'67 Royal Star
'71 Rickman Metisse
'40 Silver Star
'37 Rudge Special
sixtyseventy Lightboltrocket road racer...and many more.
Re: Are later A65 shift cam plates really better? [Re: KC in S.B.] #356010
02/01/11 5:11 pm
02/01/11 5:11 pm
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 4,420
Santa Barbara, California
KC in S.B. Offline OP

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KC in S.B.  Offline OP

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Posts: 4,420
Santa Barbara, California
AHah !! That is all good info. The issue I have with 3rd seems to fit right into the later cam plate fix then. I don't recall which plate is in there now, but would assume it to be the "intermediate" style, as I know it had no reinforcement strap. since I'm using a trans driven speedo, I wonder if I used an early trans, or later with the speedo gear added on the end of the lay shaft.......... this project took too long to have good recall. I have expected it will need a complete tear down to figure all this out. Shimming for more 3rd gear engagement is new to me also. I'll have to figure that out. I wish there was a good way to check the system prior to final sealing up the case. It seems that dry shifting will work as well as expected, but then not work well on the road.......


Down to 1 BSA, 2 Triumphs, 1 '56 Chevy
Oops,.. add 1 '65 XLCH
Re: Are later A65 shift cam plates really better? [Re: KC in S.B.] #356022
02/01/11 6:59 pm
02/01/11 6:59 pm
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 7,813
Seattle
Alex Offline

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Alex  Offline

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Seattle
KC, you can actually tell fairly well how well it's going to work when you have the cluster out. Just run the camplate to its gear position and see how far it pushes the gear into engagemant. For increasing 3rd gear engagement, I add shim between 1st gear and the TS mainshaft bearing which pushes the manishaft toward the primary side. This distance now has to be made up by fitting a thinner thrust washer to the sleeve gear to get the end float right....or, of course you could weld and grind the track in the cam plate to make up the distance. The point is, you want FULL engagement of the dogs...


A smattering:
'53 Gold Flash
'67 Royal Star
'71 Rickman Metisse
'40 Silver Star
'37 Rudge Special
sixtyseventy Lightboltrocket road racer...and many more.
Re: Are later A65 shift cam plates really better? [Re: KC in S.B.] #356030
02/01/11 7:39 pm
02/01/11 7:39 pm
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 4,420
Santa Barbara, California
KC in S.B. Offline OP

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KC in S.B.  Offline OP

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Santa Barbara, California
Thanks Alex, that sound like I can handle it !

And Gavin: RichB sent me a copy of your trans info, with his own added items. Is that posted in the tech help area? It should be!


Down to 1 BSA, 2 Triumphs, 1 '56 Chevy
Oops,.. add 1 '65 XLCH
Re: Are later A65 shift cam plates really better? [Re: KC in S.B.] #358818
02/18/11 5:26 am
02/18/11 5:26 am
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 4,420
Santa Barbara, California
KC in S.B. Offline OP

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KC in S.B.  Offline OP

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Santa Barbara, California
Update: noticed that there are even changes in the "intermediate" cam plate. Maybe this is an example of running design changes in production to fix problems, and the changes not documented for us working on them 40 years later!!
How could they not think of that??

I noticed that the cam slots have "dips" at certain points that would correspond with neutral, and the space btween 3rd and 4th.
In the 1st shot the one on the left has the dips, and the one on the right does not. I actually looked at 5 with dips, and believe them to be made that way, not a wear change.
The right cam, is smooth, and so is the later style thick cam not in the photo. I am using the thicker cam, which I believe to be the last design.
I put a DOT where the dip is noticed, and where it is gone....


[Linked Image]

Sorry...... reversed the places, dips are now on the right.

[Linked Image]


Down to 1 BSA, 2 Triumphs, 1 '56 Chevy
Oops,.. add 1 '65 XLCH
Re: Are later A65 shift cam plates really better? [Re: KC in S.B.] #358823
02/18/11 6:09 am
02/18/11 6:09 am
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 1,719
BC Canada
441/R3cafeSteve Offline
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BC Canada
The upper ramp down to 3rd? looks smoothed on the dipped as well.. Great info know a certain A65 that will benefit.
S


The 441, most versatile BSA of the 60's
Re: Are later A65 shift cam plates really better? [Re: KC in S.B.] #358863
02/18/11 2:31 pm
02/18/11 2:31 pm
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 7,813
Seattle
Alex Offline

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Alex  Offline

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Seattle
KC, in '69 there is another part number for the intermediate camplate 57-2767, which is interchangeable with the 66-68 camplate. I'm guessing that's what you have there. It looks to have the tracks from the late camplate (and yes, they are better) but with the brace and thinner section.


A smattering:
'53 Gold Flash
'67 Royal Star
'71 Rickman Metisse
'40 Silver Star
'37 Rudge Special
sixtyseventy Lightboltrocket road racer...and many more.
Re: Are later A65 shift cam plates really better? [Re: KC in S.B.] #358891
02/18/11 5:08 pm
02/18/11 5:08 pm
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 4,420
Santa Barbara, California
KC in S.B. Offline OP

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KC in S.B.  Offline OP

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Santa Barbara, California
That must be the answer. The parts books I have use all the old illustrations, with new part numbers when needed, so it's hard to see any configuration changes. Some of the reference books do help, but I don't trust Bacon that much.


Down to 1 BSA, 2 Triumphs, 1 '56 Chevy
Oops,.. add 1 '65 XLCH
Re: Are later A65 shift cam plates really better? [Re: KC in S.B.] #358967
02/19/11 12:02 am
02/19/11 12:02 am
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 4,420
Santa Barbara, California
KC in S.B. Offline OP

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KC in S.B.  Offline OP

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Santa Barbara, California
Sorry to confuse. The Trans I am using has the latest thicker material in it, not shown in that picture.
I posted those only because I noticed the difference, and thought others might like to have the info.
The post on "3rd gear" shows the trans and cam plate I will use, after swapping the mounting plate for a later style with the cam pivot support flanges.


Down to 1 BSA, 2 Triumphs, 1 '56 Chevy
Oops,.. add 1 '65 XLCH
Re: Are later A65 shift cam plates really better? [Re: KC in S.B.] #358992
02/19/11 4:21 am
02/19/11 4:21 am
Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 8
Benton, AR
J
J Covert Offline
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J

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Posts: 8
Benton, AR
The Cam Plate from the '71 or '72 models that are thicker and do not have the welded strap are the best!


Jeff

Re: Are later A65 shift cam plates really better? [Re: ] #359033
02/19/11 2:34 pm
02/19/11 2:34 pm
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 7,813
Seattle
Alex Offline

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Alex  Offline

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Seattle
The when used in combination with the correct cover, the camplates are interchangeable.


A smattering:
'53 Gold Flash
'67 Royal Star
'71 Rickman Metisse
'40 Silver Star
'37 Rudge Special
sixtyseventy Lightboltrocket road racer...and many more.
Re: Are later A65 shift cam plates really better? [Re: KC in S.B.] #359059
02/19/11 4:18 pm
02/19/11 4:18 pm
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 4,420
Santa Barbara, California
KC in S.B. Offline OP

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KC in S.B.  Offline OP

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Posts: 4,420
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May be worth mentioning. Even though the cam plate fork slots are in thicker material, the plate is the original thickness at the pivot and the quadrant windows. So the strap cam cover will accept the later thick cam. believe this to be true, at least until I am corrected...........


Down to 1 BSA, 2 Triumphs, 1 '56 Chevy
Oops,.. add 1 '65 XLCH
Re: Are later A65 shift cam plates really better? [Re: KC in S.B.] #731892
04/14/18 7:13 pm
04/14/18 7:13 pm
Joined: Sep 2017
Posts: 66
Windsor, Virginia, USA
V
VANDOLSON Offline
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V

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Posts: 66
Windsor, Virginia, USA
Old post but have a question on the stepped cam plate. I have a 1971 T-Bolt. The cam plate
I removed was not stepped. The replacement is stepped. The gearbx bearing housing cover
acceped the non-stepped early cam plate. Replacing the cam plate with the stepped cam
plate. It fits “looser” in the cover (wobble). Should this matter? Also which way does it go
in the cover? Is the step towards the gears or away?

Thanks!

Re: Are later A65 shift cam plates really better? [Re: KC in S.B.] #731905
04/14/18 10:41 pm
04/14/18 10:41 pm
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 4,231
argyll. scotland, uk
gavin eisler Online content
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argyll. scotland, uk
it will only work one way, use that one! I cut shims to take out the wobble, A beer cans about right. It probably doesnt matter.
The long sweep on the selector fork track goes to the top IIRC, the windows will give a clue if its been used before match the wear to the sprung pawls.


71 Devimead A65 750
56 Norbsa 68 Longstroke A65
Cagiva Raptor 650
MZ TS 250
The poster formerly known as Pod
Re: Are later A65 shift cam plates really better? [Re: KC in S.B.] #731906
04/14/18 10:43 pm
04/14/18 10:43 pm
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Posts: 4,163
Aus
N
NickL Offline
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Aus
You can shim the plate if it is a loose fit in the end plate. It will only go one way around, assemble on the bench or in a vice to see.

There were about 5 versions of camplates made, The later they were the better they were,
not just the thickness but the track layout. The latest type were stepped but fitting one may mean filing the bottom of the cases to clear it in top gear.
The appropriate end plate needs to be used to suit the type of camplate or modifications need to be carried out to mix/match them.

As Alex says, full dog engagement is essential to get life out of the 'box. Layshaft end float should be minimal and shimmed from the drive side to suit.

There is another thread above regarding this topic from Steve Wilson in the UK.


No-one expects the Spanish Inquisition................
Bring in the 'Comfy Chair'
Re: Are later A65 shift cam plates really better? [Re: KC in S.B.] #732104
04/16/18 9:22 pm
04/16/18 9:22 pm
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Windsor, Virginia, USA
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VANDOLSON Offline
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V

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Windsor, Virginia, USA
Thanks for all the replies. Did some mods as suggested. Have to put the inner timing cover on
with a few screws to hold it and the gear change quadrant and shifter and run through the gears
and see how it works. May end up pulling the trans and reworkng until it shifts correctly in all
gears. We’ll see.


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