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Can't title 73 Norton in New Jersey? #262578 07/02/09 7:09 pm
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nert Offline OP
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Just got this 1973 Norton 850 Commando from Texas. New Jersey Motor Vehicle tells me they can't title it. Its not on the states recognized manufacturer list?? They tell me this "list" was created about 3 years ago. AND, they said they flagged the VIN so i couldn't go to a different DMV in New Jersey. I have called Trenton, bounced around with diff departments. No one knows or can help. Any body run in to this? There has to be Nortons in New JERsey. I have seen them. HELP!!!!

Last edited by nert; 07/02/09 10:00 pm.

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Re: Can't title 73 Norton in New Jersey? [Re: nert] #262613 07/02/09 11:03 pm
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MexicoMike Offline
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I was under the impression (apparently incorrectly) that any vehicle titled/registered in one state could be titled/registered in any other state. I have moved vehicles all over the country, including my Commando, and have never had a problem.


Then again, sometimes I wonder how we came to the name "UNITED states of america" because clearly we are not too united in many administrative matters.

Last edited by MexicoMike; 07/02/09 11:05 pm.
Re: Can't title 73 Norton in New Jersey? [Re: MexicoMike] #262617 07/02/09 11:50 pm
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Your best hope to deal with the governmental stupidity is to find another New Jersey member and ask them for a title number so that they can cross reference it.

Either that or keep going to different DMV (despite the flagging) until you find someone with common sense.

Re: Can't title 73 Norton in New Jersey? [Re: swooshdave] #262621 07/03/09 12:12 am
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Jim Clausen Offline
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quote

"Then again, sometimes I wonder how we came to the name "UNITED states of america" because clearly we are not too united in many administrative matters."

My sentiments, exactly. What's wrong with a United States of America vehicle registration and same for driver's license?

Last edited by Jim Clausen; 07/03/09 12:13 am.
Re: Can't title 73 Norton in New Jersey? [Re: Jim Clausen] #262628 07/03/09 1:22 am
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Jim,
The Norton isn't in NJ's DMV database and to a typical clerk it doesn't exist. It's not their fault. Ask to talk to a supervisor and explain whats going on and you should get satisfaction. These clerks work in time parameters and have no time to deal with anything other than "business as usual". Good luck!

Cheers~Bob


A65LB
Re: Can't title 73 Norton in New Jersey? [Re: Bob~NJ] #262651 07/03/09 4:02 am
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I am really frustrated. I can almost understand that "gone postal" attitude.
Evigee, I have a 66 A65L BSA i titled a few years ago. How is that the BSA is ok and 7 years older a Norton is not. I am sure in 1973, the state titled Nortons, and probably 74, 75, 76, 77 and so on through the next couple decades. NOW!!! its not ok??? And NO ONE can answer my questions as to why. Surely, there must be a lawyer around this forum that rides a Norton, or some vintage iron.
I can't title it, i can't ride it, i can't even sell it, because i don't have title. I paid the seller for it. I paid to have it transported from Texas. I have clear Texas title, And now NJ says, I can't have it. These state workers are every day people like me and you. Our tax money pays their salary. And they treat me like i am the enemy.


keep your "oddies" lubricated, and carry a dime
Re: Can't title 73 Norton in New Jersey? [Re: nert] #262661 07/03/09 6:03 am
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You have my sympathy. Fortunatly we dont have this particular issue down here in NZ.

But I have certainly had similar problems with insurance companies, utilities and our tax department.

I have had sucess with the following.

First keep your cool.

Secondly. When you talk to or meet the persons you are having issues with make a very big show of writing and recording everything they say and do. Ask them their name. Usually they will only give their first name but then repeat back "OK Joe, Im making a record that at 10 am I visited the office of such and such a departemmnt and talked to Jo who told me etc etc etc .


Write everything down taking plenty of time and then repeat it back to them.

Then ask to see their supervisor or failing that the customer relation compaints department etc.

Keep going through this exercise until you get a result or else try ramping it up by going to another authority if possible. In NZ there is an ombudsman for govt departments and banks and other bodies for insurance etc. Its also surprising what the right elected offical can do. In NZ a local Member of Parliment will fix things.

But usually they roll over much earlier than this if you bury them in paper and good records of their BS. I once had a wonderful phone call with our tax department where I eventually got hold of a supervisor and read him out in explicit detail all the excuses and rubbish his staff had told me. He didnt do a good job putting his hand over the phone and I overheard a very strong dressing down he handed out to his staff. - and I got my refund in a week.


Kill them with their own game. They roll over when they see you are serious and they might get caught out giving the wrong advise.




Last edited by johnm; 07/03/09 6:06 am.
Re: Can't title 73 Norton in New Jersey? [Re: johnm] #262683 07/03/09 12:42 pm
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I don't know if this will help but it worked for us when we took a boat from NY to MD and had problems registering it - MD wanted full sales tax which we had already paid in NY. Went to two different offices and they said we needed "proof" that we paid the NY taxes. I showed them the nY registration (which you can't get unless you have paid tax in the first place), the bill of sale and various other papers. No go. They said I needed a signed statement from the NY derpartment of taxation stating we paid the tax. RIGHT, like THAT's going to happen.

So we wrote directly (email) to the MD office stating what happened. They wrote back the same day stating that all we needed was the old NY registration and the bill of sale showing the tax amount. We took a hard copy of that email and the SAME documents we had originally used to the first office we had gone to and they registered the boat with no issue after reading the email.

Re: Can't title 73 Norton in New Jersey? [Re: MexicoMike] #262780 07/04/09 3:24 am
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Nert,
I live just down the road from you in Ewing and I have a Norton ('65 Atlas) titled in NJ. Question 1, do you have a Texas title or are you by any chance trying to title this with a title from from a title service? Up until a few years ago, that was not a problem, now it can be as a result of the Titles Unlimited criminal cases. A buddy had considerable difficulty getting his Benelli Volcano titled. It came from a no title state. He persevered, however and was ultimately successful. Question 2, which motor vehicle office did you go to? As you may know, many of the different offices are operated by private contractors, some know what they are doing and many do not. By reputation, the folks at Flemington are easier to deal with than some of the others. Question 3, are you registering this as a an antique? If not, you might want to consider it if you can live with the restrictions, i.e., 2500 miles per year, limited to rallies, parades and pleasure riding (no commuting to work). The benefits are that you deal with the motor vehicle office on State Street in Trenton (the one next to city hall-not the old Sears building)where the people know what they are doing and actually want to help you get your older machine on the road. Additionally, there is no yearly inspection, registration is cheaper and insurance is much, much cheaper for realistic coverage. If you do not want to register it as an antique, I would go to your local MV office and demand to talk to the manager and explain in a nice way (you will get more flies with honey than you will with vinegar, particularly with a pissed off bureaucrat who would like nothing more than to make your life miserable if you yell at him) that the clerk that waited on you before is under the mistaken impression that vehicles made by defunct manufacturers can't be titled, that this is not the case, and you simply want to title your old bike. If it is not inconvenient, I would go to the Trenton MV office first and explain your problem. They will not be able to title it for you if you are not registering it as an antique, but they will tell you who to talk to and how to straighten out the problem. They just helped me out with a difficult trailer titling problem.

Re: Can't title 73 Norton in New Jersey? [Re: edunham] #262785 07/04/09 4:03 am
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nert Offline OP
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edunham
seems to be a few bits of britiron down Ewing way?
Answer 1: Actual, real, bona fide, genuine Texas Title.
Answer 2: Flemington
Answer 3: No, Not as an antique. And when i asked if that was a possible alternative, they said NO!. You can not title that vehicle, and the VIN has been "flagged" so you can't go to another DMV office and try to have it titled there.
Later in the day, i spoke to one kind women from the Flem Office who said she would call Trenton and seek further answers. She thought her own son had owned a Norton in fact.
If she can't help, then....
I guess i have to go to Trenton. Got no where, no answers, no direction, when i was at the Flemington office. Phone calls to Trenton didn't help.

Thanks for your help.

Last edited by nert; 07/04/09 4:05 am.

keep your "oddies" lubricated, and carry a dime
Re: Can't title 73 Norton in New Jersey? [Re: nert] #262788 07/04/09 4:20 am
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jaycee Offline
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i read in military vehicles magazine 2-3 yrs back about nj s draconian emissions laws and their ability to actually confiscate a vehicle if the state run repair station does not pass it in the end,im not surprised they dont want to help you,vote democratic!!!

Re: Can't title 73 Norton in New Jersey? [Re: nert] #263214 07/06/09 1:45 pm
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1. Don't laugh...the best thing any old iron guy can do as far as registration issues is get to know some old gal who works at the department and get her to like you...they can perform paperwork miracles.

2. There is a man who sells "Cat Face Tail Lights" in Walnecks magazine and on the internet...lives in Woodstock, N.Y. He can might have your answer...gives his phone number in Walnecks.

Hope this helps!

Re: Can't title 73 Norton in New Jersey? [Re: nert] #263563 07/08/09 12:23 am
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Hiya Nert,
I am a Triumph guy but I think I may be able to help you. Find out from ABATE or some other MC lobbying group which NJ state legislators are motorcycle friendly. Write a nice friendly letter to the most MC friendly legislator along with a picture of your bike and I guarantee you will get results. He'll probably read the letter, roll his eyes, make one call, and resolve things immediately. Hopefully this will result in a change in policy by the state.
I have worked as a legislative aide and believe me if the guy is interested in motorcycles and a nice pic is included it will be brought to his attention.

Re: Can't title 73 Norton in New Jersey? [Re: nert] #264094 07/11/09 9:45 am
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Hi Nert,
Seems like it is getting like this everywhere. I have recently had to cut up a 50 year old BMW because the Driver And Vehicle Licencing Authority which we have here, refused to acknowledge that it exists, even though their own inspector had examined it and agreed that it was what I said and that the chassis No. was original and unaltered. BMW said the same. The reason was that the bike was listed as having been scrapped. Privately, speaking off the record,the DVLA bloke suggested that I look for a spare frame that had papers with it!
Meanwhile the illegal trade in stolen and illicitly imported vehicles flourishes.

Last edited by oilyrag; 07/11/09 9:46 am.

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Re: Can't title 73 Norton in New Jersey? [Re: oilyrag] #264119 07/11/09 1:57 pm
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Oilyrag, surely you could have left the bike intact as "art"?


GrandPaul (does not use emoticons)
Author of the book "Old Bikes"
Too many bikes to list, mostly Triumph & Norton, some BSA & European
"The Iron in your blood should be Vintage"
Re: Can't title 73 Norton in New Jersey? [Re: GrandPaul] #264143 07/11/09 4:13 pm
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oilyrag Offline
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Oilyrag, surely you could have left the bike intact as "art"?



Of course, I only cut the frame, the rest of the parts got built into another frame which came with a logbook (title, you would call it), it was a question of economics, they would let me register the bike but only if I ground off the original frame number and replaced it with a 16 digit VIN, the bike (as well as being virtually worthless) would have been registered 'Q' ('vehicle of indeterminate age/built from parts') and would then have been liable for a "Single Vehicle Approval" test which is very expensive and which I would have had to hire a van to take it to Liverpool for (on a weekday, so add a days lost wages). It would have been liable for Road Tax like a new bike and I would have had difficulty selling, insuring or getting annual MoT (roadworthiness) tests done on it. Also it was hinted in quite an unsubtle way that they believed that I had altered the frame number to match a scrapped bike in order to disguise its identity (by this I assume they meant stolen or illegally imported) and that if anyone else tried to register a bike with that chassis number there would be repercussions on me. So I did the best I could and used the parts in another frame, it was a pity though as it was quite original and had been rebuilt and was complete and usable for 2 1/2 years whilst I tried to do things legally.


Oil is always cheaper than metal
Re: Can't title 73 Norton in New Jersey? [Re: oilyrag] #264604 07/14/09 3:33 am
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nert Offline OP
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Good news!!! I went to the big DMV, Bakers Basin, in an attempt to title my Texas Norton. The sweat heart attendant, who happened to be born the same year as the Norton,,,, discovered at least (2) other vehicles sharing the same VIN. I came prepared and submitted with the Texas Title, a photo of the bike, a photo of the frame neck with the VIN and all the "hoopla" about meeting somebody's bureaucratic standards for that year, and a pencil rubbing of the VIN on the engine. The attendant cheerfully described this as not being uncommon for old vehicles to have the same VIN as no VIN Format or requirements where yet established. She, (this wonderful DMV employee) referred to this situation (multiple vehicles having the same VIN)as a, "tie breaker".

She created a new title ID grafting the first (3) letters, "NOR" from Norton, to the beginning of the actual VIN and added "73", for the year, to the end of the actual VIN. Thereby creating a new and unique VIN for the NJ Title, by stringing the first (3) characters of the manufacturers name & the actual VIN & and the last (2) digits of the year.

Valid, New Jersey title, on the spot!!! I'm a happy man.

In retrospect, I believe the other "location" interpreted the "Approved Motorcycle Manufacturers" List to be applicable to ANY MC title attempts. I think that list is to regulate first time tile of a NEW motorcycle. CURRENT motorcycle builders must be on that list to meet approval with Federal, and New Jersey requirements before a title will be awarded. SO....If your NEW bike (read chopper, custom, backyard build) is not on the list you are urged to contact the manufacturer. Makes sense...

Obviously, manufactures who are not building NEW motorcycles, are not on the Approved List. That would explain why all the Brit Bikes, except Triumph, are not on the list.

Happy ending now...but who knows for sure?

Now if i can just get the Norton to fire on the left cylinder.


keep your "oddies" lubricated, and carry a dime
Re: Can't title 73 Norton in New Jersey? [Re: nert] #264646 07/14/09 12:23 pm
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Jim Clausen Offline
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Now if i can just get the Norton to fire on the left cylinder.


Piece of cake after what you just accomplished. Don't buy anymore lottery tickets, you just used up all your good luck for the next seven years.

Re: Can't title 73 Norton in New Jersey? [Re: Jim Clausen] #264664 07/14/09 1:52 pm
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I ran into something similar getting an 89 car titled in MD. The inspection (required prior to title) listed something like "starter lock out in gear." They rejected the car because there was no lockout. I explained to them that the car was not manufactured with one. The mech told me I would have to get a letter from the manufacturer stating that, take that letter to the State Police captain who would then, if he/she agreed, issue a letter to me saying it was ok which could be presented at the inspection. Yeah, like that would actually happen.

Went to another inspection place - went through with no trouble at all. Mech said, that the starter lock out has to be present and working IF IT WAS ORIGINALLY INSTALLED. But noted that if it was not on the car from the factory, then it's just marked with an "N/A" on the inspection sheet.

As you noted, it's often simply who you end up dealing with. Glad it worked out well!

Re: Can't title 73 Norton in New Jersey? [Re: nert] #264730 07/14/09 6:23 pm
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BrianK Offline
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Originally Posted by nert
She created a new title ID grafting the first (3) letters, "NOR" from Norton, to the beginning of the actual VIN


So now you have a NORVIN!

Re: Can't title 73 Norton in New Jersey? [Re: BrianK] #264753 07/14/09 8:04 pm
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I was so dumb as to reset the odometer on my rebuild and when I took it to be registered was told "YOU CANNOT DO THAT" I told her the speedo was not even from this bike as it was a basket case bike. And it didn't work to begin with so I would have to have it rebuilt anyway. It didn't help that there were no mirrors or turn signals either. I did my best to sway her to my way of thinking and tried to turn on the charm as it looked like I was in deep S__T. But in the end I was successful and told her the mirrors would be put on and that this bike didn't have them when sold new. At the end she even said she liked the color, LOL So I guess when they hold the cards you may just get lucky by Bull SH%&ING a little, It worked for me.


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