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Brake pipe materials #232153 01/10/09 5:46 pm
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Lorenzo Offline OP
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My T140E as purchased had a one-piece (master cylinder to caliper) braided front brake hose, which I intend to replace following the original set-up of two flex. hoses and three metal pipes, with the attendant brackets.
In the interests of corrosion resistance, I've already purchased Goodridge stainless braided hoses, and intend to make the metal pipes using "Kunifer" (90/10 cupro-nickel) tubing and brass pipe nuts. Does anyone have any actual experience of using these materials on a Triumph?
I've read somewhere that copper, and copper-based tubing is very susceptible to vibration (which can bring about sudden early fracture); this was not even considered on the many cars I've used it on, but is definitely a concern on a Triumph twin !
Apologies if I may have resurrected a subject that's already been thrashed to death, but a search revealed nothing.


1978 T140E
1979 TR7V
1960 Royal Enfield Bullet 350
1973-81 (6x) Bultacos
Waste not, want not.........Thrift is a virtue.
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Re: Brake pipe materials [Re: Lorenzo] #232157 01/10/09 6:02 pm
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Blapper Offline
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Adding complexity (more joints to leak) to gain what? I can only imagine it is a concourse jobbie as a single hose with a hydraulic switch is more reliable and therefore safer.

Just my opinion of course.

Blapper redwine

Re: Brake pipe materials [Re: Blapper] #232162 01/10/09 6:37 pm
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Lorenzo Offline OP
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Concours, it certainly isn't - using it has greater appeal than polishing it. .
The present one-piece hose has no provision for a stop-lamp switch; not a legal requirement, apparently, but makes it very unsafe in my opinion.
This hose is very difficult to clip/retain satisfactorily, and has started removing paint from the lower yoke (triple clamp), the frame at steering head, l/h. headlamp bracket, etc. and chrome from the headlamp shell; to me, a brake hose or pipe rubbing anywhere is a definite no-no.
Complexity/leaks ? Not an issue, as I've never had a brake fluid leak from a hose or pipe on any motorcycle (or car with many, many more joints), EVER.


1978 T140E
1979 TR7V
1960 Royal Enfield Bullet 350
1973-81 (6x) Bultacos
Waste not, want not.........Thrift is a virtue.
Re: Brake pipe materials [Re: Lorenzo] #232165 01/10/09 7:16 pm
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Blapper Offline
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I have hydraulic switches front and rear, and have clear heatshrink over the stainless braiding which is not exactly a fragile set-up? By using the original brackets modified to accept grommets I do not get any rubbing, just flexing between the bottom yoke fixing and the fork slider bracket. I don't see your concern?

If you aren't concerned about leaks why the concern over a short length of fixed copper pipe? I never had a leak either, just a far better feeling brake from the single hose.

Sorry, but if you aren't building a concourse bike, I think your aims are better served not doing what you propose.

As they say: Your results may vary!

Blapper redwine

Re: Brake pipe materials [Re: Blapper] #232178 01/10/09 8:31 pm
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Sisyphus Offline
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Magura front brake m.c. has the brake light switch built into it. Its also a lot smaller than the Lockheed thing. I have one on my T140 with a one-piece braided hose to the brake. Best setup ever.

Last edited by Sisyphus; 01/10/09 8:33 pm.

There is no such thing as a sympathetic vibration.
Re: Brake pipe materials [Re: Sisyphus] #232185 01/10/09 8:54 pm
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Blapper Offline
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What switchgear do you use Sis?

Blapper redwine

Re: Brake pipe materials [Re: Blapper] #232225 01/11/09 12:24 am
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Lorenzo Offline OP
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Blap -
Thank you for your input.
Dealing with each point in turn:-
It would seem you've ignored your own advice about joints/leaks by introducing an hydraulic switch to the rear brake, as surely it would have been a mechanical one originally.
My one-piece hose does not have plastic coating, and the metal braid is quite rough and abrasive; if I could get it to flex. only at the point of fork movement, rather than along its whole length, then I probably wouldn't have a concern.
The "leaks" that you mention are not the same thing as a catastrophic total failure of a metal pipe (or flexible hose), by the way .
In manufacturing bikes with the original combined hose/metal pipe layout, were the Triumph Co-Operative attempting to build "concours" bikes?
I am quite happy with the original 1978 bike and its original 1978 layout, (and dare I say it, 1978 performance and reliability?) even if I don't stay with original materials - if I harboured some frustrated urge to "modernise" it out of all recognition, I'd probably go buy a Honda instead.
You'll have gathered by now that you won't talk me into parting with my hard-earned cash to buy yet another one-piece hose; also I lean firmly towards the view that by and large, Triumph actually DID know what they were doing............


1978 T140E
1979 TR7V
1960 Royal Enfield Bullet 350
1973-81 (6x) Bultacos
Waste not, want not.........Thrift is a virtue.
Re: Brake pipe materials [Re: Lorenzo] #232234 01/11/09 1:43 am
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If Melbourne Metisse were watching I reckon he would have lots to say re this subject, Nigel builds custom brake hoses and oil cooler hoses etc for a living.
Downunder you have to be licenced to build brake lines and all Nigel's work has to be permanently tagged with a date and job number which is traceable back to him.
I believe that rigid brake line sections are constructed from double wall steel "Bundyweld" tubing.
I am not attempting to tout for business on Nigel's behalf but if you contacted him with dimensions he would certainly be capable of manufacturing what is required, brake lines are not something which I would attempt.
Interesting to note that there are lots of 25 YO + Jappas getting around with original brake hoses, I recall that the owners handbook for the big Suzuki fours states that brake hoses must be replaced every two years !!!!


1969 TR6R
7.62 x 51 is not a maths puzzle.
Re: Brake pipe materials [Re: Tiger] #232261 01/11/09 8:53 am
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Hey Lorenzo,

Well, I figured that a hydraulic switch that worked was way better than the mechanical one that comes as standard on the later switchgear. I have that switch gear, but was so appalled at the standard of design and that it is so exposed that I elected not to use it.

[Linked Image]

I've attached a couple of snaps of how I get it not to flex and it is routed so that it doesn't rub anything anywhere else.

[Linked Image]
[Linked Image]

I mean concours as is applied to building a bike that is renovated to look like it just rolled out of the factory even if that means re-creating the same mistakes as the designers of the day, not just meaning a clean bike.

Quote
I am quite happy with the original 1978 bike and its original 1978 layout, (and dare I say it, 1978 performance and reliability?) even if I don't stay with original materials - if I harboured some frustrated urge to "modernise" it out of all recognition, I'd probably go buy a Honda instead


Agreed indeed (except the bit about being happy with the reliability).

I have the original bits off mine if you're interested.

Blapper redwine

Re: Brake pipe materials [Re: Blapper] #232264 01/11/09 10:28 am
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Lorenzo Offline OP
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Congrats. on a couple of neat installations there - in keeping, of course, with everything you appear to have done to your bike.
Unfortunately this won't work with my one-piece hose as it's way too long. I found once I'd gotten it to stop rubbing, in use on the road it worked its way downwards into a great loop that hung outside the forks by about a foot !


1978 T140E
1979 TR7V
1960 Royal Enfield Bullet 350
1973-81 (6x) Bultacos
Waste not, want not.........Thrift is a virtue.
Re: Brake pipe materials [Re: Lorenzo] #232266 01/11/09 11:47 am
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Blapper Offline
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Ah, OK. That'd explain it. With my forks at full extension mine is almost too tight.

Back to your original question - what is wrong with the original pipes? You could get them re-plated if you liked? Copper does work-harden so I see your concern there, but why re-invent the wheel when there are countless sets of rigid pipes that people have removed?

BTW Trevor at LP Williams will make what you want to your measurements.

Blapper redwine

Re: Brake pipe materials [Re: Lorenzo] #232270 01/11/09 1:15 pm
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Melbourne Metisse Offline
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Do NOT use copper pipe for brakes. In most of the civilised world it is illegal. Copper is indeed susceptible to vibration induced work hardening and cracking, especially in small diameter pipes like 3/16ths brake pipe. I use mild steel or stainless steel bundy tubing both of which can be bent beautifully and take excellent double flares. Flare nuts should also be steel if at all possible.

Re: Brake pipe materials [Re: Melbourne Metisse] #232272 01/11/09 1:41 pm
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zhango Offline
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Originally Posted by Melbourne Metisse
Do NOT use copper pipe for brakes.

Perhaps people mean Cunifer when they say copper though?

Re: Brake pipe materials [Re: zhango] #232277 01/11/09 2:23 pm
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Tridentman Online Content
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Lorenzo---when in UK I replaced the rusty steel brake pipes on an ex military Land Rover with 90/10 cupro-nickel pipes from a kit supplied by Automec.
I bent the pipes to suit using a hand made bender and fixed them properly at 6" spacing.
No problems at all over many years.
Not a Triumph I would agree but certainly plenty of vibration!

Re: Brake pipe materials [Re: Blapper] #232301 01/11/09 6:19 pm
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Sisyphus Offline
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Blap, you asked about switchgear:

The bike has minimal electrics; no turn signals, tail light, brake light, headlamp. That's it. Oh, and horn. the hi and lo beam are run from a Ducon switch, horn button is on that too.
Brake switch on rear is as standard, front is incorporated into the Magura unit's brake lever w/ momentary switch. Kind of nice, actually.


There is no such thing as a sympathetic vibration.
Re: Brake pipe materials [Re: Sisyphus] #232305 01/11/09 6:35 pm
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Blapper Offline
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Sounds cool. I'm going to do a minimalist bike one day, I've got the hots for a TRW.

Blapper redwine

Re: Brake pipe materials [Re: Blapper] #232319 01/11/09 7:47 pm
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L.A.B. Online Content
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Originally Posted by Blapper
BTW Trevor at LP Williams will make what you want to your measurements.



Trevor (Gleadall) sold L P Williams.

It's now owned by Phil Bargh: http://dspace.dial.pipex.com/slippery_sam/frames.htm > About us.

Re: Brake pipe materials [Re: L.A.B.] #232335 01/11/09 9:06 pm
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Blapper Offline
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Blimey.

redwine

Re: Brake pipe materials [Re: Lorenzo] #232396 01/12/09 3:33 am
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Stuart Offline
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Hi,

Originally Posted by Lorenzo
In the interests of corrosion resistance, I've already purchased Goodridge stainless braided hoses, and intend to make the metal pipes using "Kunifer" (90/10 cupro-nickel) tubing and brass pipe nuts.

As you're probably going off this idea, "in the interests of corrosion resistance", as you're using Goodridge flexible hose, why don't you use what Goodridge term 'stainless hardline'? Goodridge in GB won't supply you direct but they will give you the name of one of their customers that you can then contact direct.

That said, while I have a number of bikes with multi-line set-ups (that I made myself), I can't help believing you're making this more complicated than it needs to be (imho, Triumph and Lockheed did make it more complicated than it needed to be). I've a T100 with T150 front end, which is the same as your T140, and two flex lines - one from the master cylinder to a brass 'T' on the lower yoke eyebolt and the other from that brass 'T' to the caliper - are all that's needed; moreover the third exit from the 'T' takes the pressure switch and you have a far more reliable switch than the Mickey Mouse thing Triumph and Lucas came up with as standard.

Originally Posted by Blapper
[Linked Image]

Errrrm ... I hate to rain on your parade but you might want to re-read Goodridge's instructions about minimum bend radius, then measure the two curves again, then remove that bracket ...

Originally Posted by Lorenzo
Unfortunately this won't work with my one-piece hose as it's way too long. I found once I'd gotten it to stop rubbing, in use on the road it worked its way downwards into a great loop that hung outside the forks by about a foot !

Shame you've bought new Goodridge hoses already. You could've cut this hose as required and fitted just Goodridge reusable fittings (instructions in their paper catalogues or downloadable from their website) but, before fitting 'em, slipped heatshrink hose over the braid.

Hth,

Regards,

Re: Brake pipe materials [Re: Stuart] #232410 01/12/09 8:08 am
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Hi Stuart,

There is no problem there, I already discussed it with a dealer. There is no movement on the caliper side of the bracket and it is movement that is the problem.

Interestingly, a lot of the shop sold solutions for braided rear hoses use a bend radius at least as tight as that with constant movement present (mine doesn't).

Quote
I hate to rain on your parade


Strange choice of words confused .

Blapper redwine

Re: Brake pipe materials [Re: Blapper] #232423 01/12/09 12:58 pm
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zhango Offline
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Picture for Blapper
What do you think as alternative to your piece of heat-shrink?
It's a HEL s/s switch and I got the rubber boot from a classic car autojumble so may be off a coil or distributor.
[Linked Image]

Re: Brake pipe materials [Re: Melbourne Metisse] #232436 01/12/09 1:54 pm
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Tiger Offline
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Originally Posted by Melbourne Metisse
Do NOT use copper pipe for brakes. In most of the civilised world it is illegal. Copper is indeed susceptible to vibration induced work hardening and cracking, especially in small diameter pipes like 3/16ths brake pipe. I use mild steel or stainless steel bundy tubing both of which can be bent beautifully and take excellent double flares. Flare nuts should also be steel if at all possible.


Charles Darwin would have cursed you Nigel, attempting to intefere with the natural order and such.

Well intentioned in any case, the roads are shared by all and all have a share in the risks taken by the foolish.


1969 TR6R
7.62 x 51 is not a maths puzzle.
Re: Brake pipe materials [Re: Tiger] #232440 01/12/09 2:17 pm
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Zhango: Neat :bigt. I'll put one over my switch when I next do maintenance on the front brake - about 25 years time wink

Blapper redwine

Re: Brake pipe materials [Re: Blapper] #232515 01/13/09 1:12 am
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Stuart Offline
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Hi Blapper,

Originally Posted by Blapper
There is no problem there, I already discussed it with a dealer.

'Fraid you've been misinformed. frown While I could point you towards at least two dealers who would tell you the opposite, it's probably clearest quoting from Goodridge's own instructions - http://www.goodridge.net/uk/pdf/GoodridgeCatalogue2007.pdf | page 96
"Hose Assembly Instructions
Wherever a hose assembly is used in either a static or dynamic flexing application (my italics), it is necessary to ensure that the centre line bend radius is not taken below the minimum bend radius for the hose".

Unfortunately, the bend radii for hoses isn't actually in that version of the catalogue/instructions, although I'm told it will be in the next one. However, you can either believe me when I tell you that, for 600-03 hose, it's 1.5" (38mm) or confirm that with Goodridge's sales office (I spoke with a guy called Matt today) at Exeter.

There isn't room for two reverse curves of 1.5" radius between a slider bracket and a Lockheed caliper in the standard position, never mind that your bike's caliper is further away from the slider. However, I know for a fact that a slider bracket isn't necessary if the hose is held at the lower yoke level (and not too long), which your bike's is (and doesn't appear to be); the bracket was only for the standard set-up because of the over-complication by Lockheed that I mentioned in my previous post. Fwiw, when doing my first brake line conversion (one of my T160's to twin front discs), I nearly fell into the same trap; luckily, I was duplicating the set-up Les Williams developed for his 'Legend' and it was him that advised me the slider bracket wasn't necessary.

Hth.

Regards,

Re: Brake pipe materials [Re: Stuart] #232548 01/13/09 8:32 am
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Hey Stuart,

Those are similar to the figures I got too. Here's a poor snap of my paperwieght:

[Linked Image]

2.835" dia.

First bend:

[Linked Image]

Way bigger than 3". Second bend:

[Linked Image]

On the limit. These snaps were hard to get laying on the floor bent at a funny angle so they don't show it quite right. When I didn't have the camera in my hand the comparison showed the rads were 'better' than that.

redwine

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