BritBike Forum logo
BritBike SponsorBritBike SponsorBritBike SponsorBritBike SponsorBritBike Sponsor SteadfastCyclesBritBike SponsorBritBike SponsorBritBike SponsorBritBike SponsorHepolite PistonsBritBike SponsorBritBike Sponsor
Upgrade to: Gold Membership | Premium Membership | Vendor Membership | Site Sponsor Membership
Words from our sponsors..
Vintage Motorcycle Auctioneers!
Vintage Motorcycle Auctioneers

CLICK HERE to see VIDEO
How the Electric Roller Starter works.

ORDER on eBay. CLICK HERE!
Buy your Electric Roller Starter here
ShoutChat Box
Comment Guidelines: Do post respectful and insightful comments.
Buy BritBike staff a coffee
Buy BritBike's staff a coffeeStill here since 1996 serving BritBike enthusiasts..
Search eBay for motorcycle parts in following countries
Australia, Canada, France, Holland, Italy, United Kingdom, USA
Random Gallery photo
Member Spotlight
Bobster
Bobster
Seattle, Washington
Posts: 44
Joined: October 2007
Show All Member Profiles 
Newest Members
knobby, coomo, Chris mannifield, ruellarobson, bikerboy
11023 Registered Users
Top Posters(30 Days)
franko 138
koan58 68
DavidP 64
Rohan 51
Popular Topics(Views)
1,150,777 mail-order LSR
a word from..
Forum Statistics
Forums35
Topics68,980
Posts691,293
Members11,023
Most Online14,755
May 5th, 2019
Who's Online Now
44 registered members (Beach), 1,534 guests, and 969 spiders.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Rate Thread
Page 1 of 3 1 2 3
ATF in the primary--1969 Bonneville #147003 08/17/08 2:33 am
Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 89
J
John M Offline OP
BritBike Forum member
OP Offline
BritBike Forum member
J
Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 89
My clutch slips, and I'd like to try the ATF (Type F) in the primary. Do I need to take out the clutch plates and clean them, or can I just drain the oil and replace with ATF?

Thanks,

John

1969 Bonneville

Support Your #1 BritBike Forum!

Check out British motorcycles for sale:
British Motorcycles on e-Bay UK
British motorcycles on e-Bay North America
CLICK HERE to see VIDEO
How the Electric Roller Starter works.


ORDER on eBay. CLICK HERE!

Buy your Electric Roller Starter here
Re: ATF in the primary--1969 Bonneville #147004 08/17/08 3:17 am
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 248
R
RHall-HCV Offline
BritBike Forum member
Offline
BritBike Forum member
R
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 248
DO NOT USE TYPE F!!! IT HAS A GRIT SUBSTANCE IN THE OIL THAT SHOULD NOT BE USED WITH BEARINGS. AND IF YOUR PRIMARY IS NOT SEALED FROM THE CRANKCASE OIL YOU SHOULDENT DO IT AT ALL BECAUSE ENGINE OIL WILL MIX ANY WAY. GET A NEW SET OF PLATES, METAL AND FIBER AND A NEW SET OF SPRINGS. ADJUST EVERYTHING PROPERLY AND USE 30W HD CASTROL IN ENGINE AND PRIMARY AND YOU WILL HAVE NO MORE CLUTCH PROBLEMS. FIX IT RIGHT THIS ONE TIME AND YOU WILL PROBABLY NEVER HAVE TO TOUCH IT AGAIN.


ROB HALL
HCV MOTORSPORTS
Re: ATF in the primary--1969 Bonneville #147005 08/17/08 11:46 am
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 836
Dennis B, R.I.P. Offline
BritBike Forum member
Offline
BritBike Forum member
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 836
John M,
Yes you can use ATF in your primary.
A 69 bonnie does not share engine oil and primary oil.Unless someone before you has done some modifying.
Your steel plates can be cleaned and roughed up a bit with sandpaper(I prefer sandblasting them)You might be able to clean the friction plates(soak them in lacquer thinner)
But I would recommend going with new ones from MAP(MAP2150) and new springs.
HTH
Cheers
Dennis B

RHALL,
WHERE DID YOU GET YOUR INFORMATION??
I USE TYPE F ATF IN MY 68 BONNIVILLE,
73 NORTON COMMANDO,
AND 2 69 BSA VICTORS
AS DO LOTS OF OTHER PEOPLE WITH NO PROBLEMS.

People read posts like this and say“I know it's true, I read it on the internet”


Member # 182
'73 750 Commando
'72 Combat Commando
'71 Triumph Blazer
'69 Victors
'68 Starfire
'51 Royal Enfield 250 'S'

Re: ATF in the primary--1969 Bonneville #147006 08/17/08 11:50 am
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 2,076
Mike Baker Offline
BritBike Forum member
Offline
BritBike Forum member
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 2,076
John
How and when did the clutch begin to slip? There are most likely some other factors at work here.
A few details about your situation would help with a diagnosis.
And I could be wrong here, but there are a lot of old Fords using type F in their transmissions. Could it really be that bad?
Mike

Re: ATF in the primary--1969 Bonneville #147007 08/17/08 12:10 pm
Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 89
J
John M Offline OP
BritBike Forum member
OP Offline
BritBike Forum member
J
Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 89
I am using the 7-plate type clutch. I got it new about seven years ago, and it has always slipped a bit (better than the sticking I had before). In the last year I have really gotten my bike sorted out, and now it produces enough power that the clutch slips regularly. It's embarrassing, but I can't remember whether I'm using straight 30 or 10W30, or what brand or rating the oil is, but I know I have had slippage with both types that I have used. The clutch springs are new in the last couple of years, and they are adjusted tighter than the manual says, but I still have slippage.

I have gathered a slew of opinions on the type of ATF to use, and almost everyone who has an opinion has said to use Type F. Now I can add one contradictory opinion to the bunch, just to make things interesting!

Thanks,

John

Re: ATF in the primary--1969 Bonneville #147008 08/17/08 12:22 pm
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 4,425
Tiger Offline
BritBike Forum member
Offline
BritBike Forum member
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 4,425
I use what is referred to in Australia as Type 3 ATF, specified for the old Borg Warner 35 and 40 auto transmissions.

I seriously doubt that type F contains abrasives.


1969 TR6R
7.62 x 51 is not a maths puzzle.
Re: ATF in the primary--1969 Bonneville #147009 08/17/08 1:15 pm
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 556
J
jangg Offline
BritBike Forum member
Offline
BritBike Forum member
J
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 556
My 2c on this ..

Ok - I know - "..several roads to Rome..". My '73 Commando had a terrible drag (not the theme here, but..) when cold. Couldn't understand exactly what was wrong - used a rather cheap ATF oil and a friend of mine (local Triumph dealer and specialist) gave me this: Castrol ATF TQ DIII.
When I pulled the plates they were clustered like added some kind of adhesive liquid. The old oil was also creamy - totally unwanted specifics when in my primary.

The Castrol oil was so very different and perfect!
The transcription on the bottle says: "..recommended for use in all Ford (1983 to 1996) and GM (before 2005) automatic transmissions. .. Do NOT use where Type F, MERCONS V, MERCONS SP or DEXTRONS VI fluids are *required*.

Just trying to describe "one way to..". And Castrol has very good oil products for our old machinery smile

regards
jangg


'73 Commando Basket - new aluminium cyl
'93 Ducati 900 SS

"Better lit a light than cursing the darkness"
(Confucius)
Re: ATF in the primary--1969 Bonneville #147010 08/17/08 3:54 pm
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 2,076
Mike Baker Offline
BritBike Forum member
Offline
BritBike Forum member
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 2,076
John
Not really familiar with 7 plate clutches, but my experience with pre 70 machines showed me that 10-30 or straight 30 was too thick. I got best results with ATF or 20w non detergent oil.
I don't see any problem with just draining the present oil and replaceing it with the juice of your choice. May have to do it a couple of times to ensure a complete change. And it would be a quick way of seeing if there is an improvement
Tiger- My recolection was that Type F was as you said for units with Borg Warner clutches and Dexron was for units with Raybestos clutches.
Mike

Re: ATF in the primary--1969 Bonneville #147011 08/17/08 4:07 pm
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 1,675
B
bodine031 Offline
BritBike Forum member
Offline
BritBike Forum member
B
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 1,675
geez i been usin type f in my gm products and some brit bikes for 25 yrs with no issues.i must be doin somethin wrong?!

Re: ATF in the primary--1969 Bonneville #147012 08/17/08 4:15 pm
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 3,895
D
dave jones Offline
BritBike Forum member
Offline
BritBike Forum member
D
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 3,895
John- I have 15W/ 50 in my primary (67 Triumph TR6R) at the moment and it is fine. I have used single weight 30 and 10W/ 40 in the past and it makes no difference.

Make sure you aren't putting too much oil in the primary. Use the level plug with the bike on its wheels rather than measuring the oil because it never all comes out when you drain it. This is the only thing that made my clutch slip at one time.

You may have some other issue preventing your clutch from working correctly. Is the pressure plate adjusted evenly? Are the grooves where the plate tangs run run still smooth with no burrs on the tangs themselves? Plates dead flat?

Dave

Re: ATF in the primary--1969 Bonneville #147013 08/17/08 7:02 pm
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 759
J
jays375 Offline
BritBike Forum member
Offline
BritBike Forum member
J
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 759
Okay you said it has always slipped since you put it in.When installed did you soak the clutch plates in oil first.I personely let them soak overnight,probally overkill.If you soaked them first it sounds like the clutch isn't adjusted right.One way to tell is if the kicker slips when trying to start the bike.I would get out the manual and adjust it.If you still have a problem with it could be a a loose nut on the other side of the shaft.Then you will need to take it a apart and tighten it and install a new tab washer.Of course the plates could be glazed up since it has slipped so long.Check it all out and see what you come up with.

Re: ATF in the primary--1969 Bonneville #147014 08/18/08 12:07 am
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 248
R
RHall-HCV Offline
BritBike Forum member
Offline
BritBike Forum member
R
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 248
IM NOT TRYING TO ARGUE WITH ANY ONE HERE. TYPE F HAS FRICTION MODIFIERS IN IT TO PROMOTE GRAB, BUT F IS A REALLY OLD FORMULA THAT ACTUALLY HAS A GRITTY SUBSTANCE IN IT. NO DOUBT IT WILL HELP A CLUTCH GRAB BUT I HAVE SEEN IT SEIZE SHAFTS IN TRANNYS, CLUTCH PUSHRODS AND RADIAL BEARINGS ON PRESSURE PLATES. THE REG DEXTRON DOES NOT CONTAIN THESE AND SEEMS TO BE FINE. BUT IF THE CLUTCH IS SLIPPING ON A STOCK 650 THERE IS ANOTHER PROBLEM TO BE FIXED.


ROB HALL
HCV MOTORSPORTS
Re: ATF in the primary--1969 Bonneville #147015 08/18/08 12:24 am
Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 622
aprophet Offline
BritBike Forum member
Offline
BritBike Forum member
Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 622
Friction modifier
A substance which enhances the ability of oil to remain slippery. In most SH and SJ series oil, friction modifiers have been added to improve engine starting and prolong engine life. However, in engines with a wet clutch (i.e., the engine oil lubricates the clutch plates) such as motorcycle engines, oils with friction modifiers can cause the clutch to slip and may force the premature replacement of the clutch plates.

http://www.motorera.com/dictionary/FR.HTM#FrictionModifier
hth beerchug


1964 A65C Rocket (Jeanie)
1971 T25SS
1971 A65T BSA (Lucile)
1965 A65D Lightning Rocket
Re: ATF in the primary--1969 Bonneville #147016 08/18/08 12:42 am
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 230
W
Woody1911a1 Offline
BritBike Forum member
Offline
BritBike Forum member
W
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 230
'twas my understanding of the term too .

ps RHALL why do you keep SHOUTING at us ?

Re: ATF in the primary--1969 Bonneville #147017 08/18/08 2:09 am
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 248
R
RHall-HCV Offline
BritBike Forum member
Offline
BritBike Forum member
R
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 248
SORRY I JUST ALWAYS LEAVE CAPS ON SO I CANT EVER FORGET TO CAP A NAME OR SENTENCE. ALL OF THIS IS IN MY OPINION ANY WAY. I WOULDNT USE IT IN MY STUFF BECAUSE IVE SEEN PROBLEM AND PEOPLE WAY SMARTER THAN ME EXPLAINED TO ME THATS WHAT THE PROBLEM WAS. BUT IF NO ONE ELSE EVER HAS PROBLEMS WITH IT THEN I GUESS ITS FINE TO USE.


ROB HALL
HCV MOTORSPORTS
Re: ATF in the primary--1969 Bonneville #147018 08/18/08 2:12 am
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 248
R
RHall-HCV Offline
BritBike Forum member
Offline
BritBike Forum member
R
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 248
MBLA WHERE IN ASHEVILLE ARE YOU? IM FROM THERE, MY FAMILY OWNS CITY FOREIGN AUTO SUPPLY.


ROB HALL
HCV MOTORSPORTS
Re: ATF in the primary--1969 Bonneville #147019 08/18/08 2:34 am
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 4,929
Mark Z Online Sleepy
BritBike Forum member
Online Sleepy
BritBike Forum member
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 4,929
I've replaced many clutch discs on my A65s over the years because they were inundated with cooked-on oil goo. When this happens they both stick AND slip. I tried cleaning them, perhaps not with the right stuff (I used kerosene), and they would work ok for a while, but would quickly revert.

Then I started using ATF with a fresh set of discs. I found that the ATF does not cook on like motor oil, nor does the clutch heat up as readily.

I also started CHANGING the primary oil with every motor oil change (which is often for me, about every 500-1000 miles). Interesting, the service manual says to do that, but many people don't. This may be as important to clutch life as what kind of oil you use.

The discussion about what kind of ATF to use is new to me - I think I may try that Castrol TQ DIII next - hell, at 1/3 pint a shot, cost is not a big issue.


Mark Z

'65(lower)/'66(upper, wheels, front end, controls)/'67(seat, exhaust, fuel tank, headlamp)/'70(frame) A65 Bitsa.
Re: ATF in the primary--1969 Bonneville #147020 08/18/08 6:32 am
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 4,493
Blapper Offline
BritBike Forum member
Offline
BritBike Forum member
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 4,493
Hey RHall,

Just do it in lower case, it's easier to read if you're not shouting.

This idea that one grade of ATF has 'gritty' stuff in it? [Linked Image] Which cars do you know that could run with gritty stuff in the transmission and not be damaged and why would that be? Can you explain?

Blapper redwine

Re: ATF in the primary--1969 Bonneville #147021 08/18/08 10:35 am
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 2,076
Mike Baker Offline
BritBike Forum member
Offline
BritBike Forum member
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 2,076
RH
Recently moved from Mich. to Fairview. Kids are all off to do their things now, better weather and economy here. Not to mention the incredible riding possibilities....
Sorry for the threadjacking.
Mike
[email protected]

Re: ATF in the primary--1969 Bonneville #147022 08/18/08 5:33 pm
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 11,210
RF Whatley Offline
BritBike Forum member
Offline
BritBike Forum member
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 11,210
Quote
Originally posted by John M:
Do I need to take out the clutch plates and clean them, or can I just drain the oil and replace with ATF?
John -

If you are concerned about compatibility then simply change the primary oil 1 or 2 times over the course of the next 300 miles or so. ATF is cheap. Cheaper than your labor to disassemble the primary case and wash off plates.

IMHO it's completely compatible with any oils that might have been used previously, and I've never found any issues with its use. And to date, I might have converted 200+ machines. ATF is all we use in the primary case of ANY Brit bike that comes to the shop for service.

Try it. If you don't like it, then swap back. At the least, you'll end up with your primary case flushed out... and that can't be too terrible.

:bigt:


Don't hide 'em, Ride 'em !!

RF Whatley
Cornelia, GA
Re: ATF in the primary--1969 Bonneville #147023 08/18/08 11:43 pm
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 106
aceaceca Offline
BritBike Forum member
Offline
BritBike Forum member
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 106
I have just put type F in my 1970 Bonnie to try it out. Seems OK after 100 miler. I had 5w-20 in there before but it all leaked out as I did not have a gasket on there.Now it is high and dry, nary a drop anywhere. Am also checking for oil mixing which I believe is a load of crap.

Re: ATF in the primary--1969 Bonneville #147024 08/19/08 12:01 am
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 11,210
RF Whatley Offline
BritBike Forum member
Offline
BritBike Forum member
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 11,210
Ace Guy -

If you have a true 1970 motor with the primary breather system, then you cannot add ATF to the primary without it getting into the engine's oil supply.

I would highly advise an oil change for BOTH the primary and engine oil tank IMMEDIATELY. A 1970 model runs the same oil in the primary as the engine because the oil supplies are shared.

eek


Don't hide 'em, Ride 'em !!

RF Whatley
Cornelia, GA
Re: ATF in the primary--1969 Bonneville #147025 08/19/08 1:05 am
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 2,076
Mike Baker Offline
BritBike Forum member
Offline
BritBike Forum member
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 2,076
I agree with Mr Waddley. IF it a 70. The primary and crankcase WILL mix. ATF has very strong detergents in it and it will knock loose anything that has been laying quietly in the dark recesses of your engine and sludge tube. Get that stuff floating around in your oil....
I'm not getting warm fuzzies here...
Mike

Re: ATF in the primary--1969 Bonneville #147026 08/19/08 2:43 am
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 248
R
RHall-HCV Offline
BritBike Forum member
Offline
BritBike Forum member
R
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 248
Like i said in my first post. Call me stupid but ATF is not motor oil. MMMM bet those rod beaings are loving that stuff thats been in the sludge trap for 20 years. And look guys i figured out where that cap lock button is. HAHA!!


ROB HALL
HCV MOTORSPORTS
Re: ATF in the primary--1969 Bonneville #147027 08/19/08 5:12 pm
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 11,210
RF Whatley Offline
BritBike Forum member
Offline
BritBike Forum member
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 11,210
Quote
Originally posted by RHall:
And look guys, I figured out where that cap lock button is. HAHA!!
So, old dogs CAN learn new tricks!

Congrats!!

beerchug


Don't hide 'em, Ride 'em !!

RF Whatley
Cornelia, GA
Page 1 of 3 1 2 3

Moderated by  John Healy 

Home | Sponsors | Newsletter | Regalia | Calendar | Bike Project | BritBike Museum | Spiders Cartoons | DVD- Manuals & Parts books
Upgrade to: Gold Membership | Premium Membership | Vendor Membership | Site Sponsor Membership
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.3