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72 tiger 650 5 speed Gear Identification #146478 08/07/08 5:07 am
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Mark Cigainero Offline OP
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I am repairing a friends 1972 650 triumph five speed transmission. This bike has been stored for about 20 years. The transmission went out way back when and another friend of ours attempted to repair the transmission. He has since passed away and I inherited the repair. I need to know how to tell if all the gears in this 72 tranny are the original ones. I have a triumph parts manual ordered on the way that I hope will resolve the issue with part numbers I can verify. What I need to know is this?? My friend is a cheap Bastard and just wants me to get her up and running. This tranny does not have the plunger locator for the cam. It has the leaf spring--YUK. I have been told that second gear was a problem on these early transmissions and were prone to spontaneous combustion. What gears do I need to replace to resolve the glass transmission issue and still retain most of the origional ones replacing the ones that fail??? Who should I purchase them from??? I have had good luck with MAP and Rabers. I have inspected all the gears and shafts-dogs-cam etc. etc. and everyth9ng looks great. Our friend who passed away acquired the replacement bad gears about 15 years ago but could not get it to shift corrrectly. You guys have already helped me a lot and I believe I know now how to install the inner cover using the first gear or fifth gear methods of installation to get it to shift correctly. I need to know if he purchased the upgrade gears for the mainshaft and layshaft to resolve the 2nd gear explosion problem. s Just so I am sure ----does anyone know a link that will explain exactly which part numbers and or gears I need --to make sure and replace before proceeding to re-assemble with the original gearset for my cheap friend??? It will not be a daily rider or hot rod--Just a Bar Hopper on weekends. You guys are the best and any advise would be greatly appreciated. If it was mine I would do it right but I need to get this albatross off my neck and get her running--Thanks again for any help you can give me---Mark Cigainero-- Frustrated in HOT TEXAS

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Re: 72 tiger 650 5 speed Gear Identification #146479 08/07/08 4:45 pm
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RF Whatley Offline
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Mark -
If you really want to "get the albatross off your neck", then may I suggest simply walking away right now. Sounds like you're setting yourself up for a lifetime of lost weekends working on someone else's bike who neither cares about you or the bike.

As to the newer gears, the "give away" is the dog for first gear. The "glass" 5-speeds had a smallish dog on the end of the mainshaft which is the first thing you see when you open one up. You'll want to compare the old and new dog, then you'll know. Mechanics of the era kept a worthless, older style 1st gear dog in their tool box for quick ID.

The CP-1000 (?) gear update kit included the 1st gear dog, 1st gear main, and 2 other gears. It was all the lower gears that were affected. You had to install it all or none. Having been a dealer at the time, John Healy could give you a lot more detail. Do a search, I believe he covered this info in the last 6 months.

You should probably also replace all the coil springs in the outer cover while you're at it.

:bigt:


Don't hide 'em, Ride 'em !!

RF Whatley
Cornelia, GA
Re: 72 tiger 650 5 speed Gear Identification #146480 08/07/08 7:23 pm
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Britbodger R.I.P. Offline
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Mark - You already mentioned MAP I know, but wondered if you had overlooked the excellent coverage of the different gears over the years with corresponding numbers in their catalogue.

Just thought would mention this.

beerchug

Re: 72 tiger 650 5 speed Gear Identification #146481 08/07/08 9:05 pm
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Melbourne Metisse Offline
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Conversion from leaf spring to coil and plunger is a worthwhile improvement IMHO. It improved the shift immensely in my transmission.

Re: 72 tiger 650 5 speed Gear Identification #146482 08/09/08 4:39 am
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Mark Cigainero Offline OP
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Thanks guys for the good info. I will get the parts manual soon and get back with you--

Re: 72 tiger 650 5 speed Gear Identification #146483 08/09/08 6:27 am
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DMadigan Offline
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I still have the original 5 speed in my '72 R3 in a Wenco race frame. No problems with it but then I do not pop wheelies in first either. Full throttle through the gears works fine.
I also never had any problems with the leaf spring on the A75. It has an advantage over the plunger in that it does not dig a groove in the edge of the camplate. Probably more of a setup or user problem than anything in the gearbox. If you do not want the "spontaneous combustion" gearbox parts, I will take them.

Re: 72 tiger 650 5 speed Gear Identification #146484 08/10/08 7:17 am
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Mark Cigainero Offline OP
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Thanks for the advise. I may just look for another complete tranny on E-Bay or other sources. This transmission seems to be a hodge-podge of miss-matched gears-- My Replacement parts catalog has shown little light on my delimma.. Thanks for all the help on the previous post. I have a 1972 triumph 650 5 speed that I am rebuilding. Here are the mainshaft gear numbers that are printed on the gears that I have to work with.

Mainshaft
1st & 2nd 574380
3rd 574378
4th Has absolutely NO numbers on it
5th Has absolutely NO numbers on it

Layshaft Gears
1st 574392
2nd 574389
3rd 4387
4th 4788 This number is 4 digits higher than orig.
5th No number available

I am really stumped here. Why is 4th gear that I have 4 digits higher than the original listed in the 72 parts catalog?? The transmission has been pieced together a couple of times. All these gears are in good shape. I need to know which ones ore incorrect or need to be replaced to solve the glass transmission issue (exploding gears). Does the 57 numerical Prefix mean they are upgrades or does it simply go along with the numeric conversion triumph made in 1973. WHY are several of the gears listed one number higher in value than the originals listed in the 72 parts catalogue. I am really stuck on this issue and any help would be greatly appreciated. Am I good to go with assembly with what I have. Which gears need to be replaced to keep it from blowing up again===Thanks Mark Cigainero

Re: 72 tiger 650 5 speed Gear Identification #146485 08/10/08 11:05 am
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aprophet Offline
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on bsa s there is a part number and a casting number they are ussally one number different not sure if this applys to triumphs or not hth cheers pal


1964 A65C Rocket (Jeanie)
1971 T25SS
1971 A65T BSA (Lucile)
1965 A65D Lightning Rocket
Re: 72 tiger 650 5 speed Gear Identification #146486 08/10/08 12:53 pm
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Britbodger R.I.P. Offline
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Quote
I still have the original 5 speed in my '72 R3 in a Wenco race frame. No problems with it but then I do not pop wheelies in first either.
I also have a 72 original 5 speed in my engine. No problems either even after extensive use on both the road and in road racing the latter involving drag racing type starts and high load downshifts - couldn't ask for more abuse than that eek . However, another 72 5-speed that I aquired from a swap meet has a bottom layshaft gear with a chipped tooth that apparently is typical, so to be on the safe side I'm upgrading my gear cluster with the later type layshaft that has the heavier gears.

Summarising IMHO, I feel that a 72 5-speed, if it has lasted all this time would be OK for raod use but would be tempting providence if used on the track even though I haven't experienced a problem myself.

My 2c

Re: 72 tiger 650 5 speed Gear Identification #146487 08/10/08 1:55 pm
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RF Whatley Offline
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Mark -

Some thoughts...
The numbers on Triumph parts were hardly ever the finished part number; more usually the forging or blank. Lucas, yes; Triumph, no.
Only lower gears were in the "weak" kit, 1st for sure. Healy did a post about the CP-1000 kit within the last 6 months. Look it up.
The only ways I know to check this is to go through a parts room physically comparing each piece number by number.

Personally, I see no issues with (if the dogs will all engage) putting what you have back together. Doing a really good adjustment on the clutch and ride the thing. Not all "weak" 5-speeds exploded, you know.

If you MUST have it set right, then you can buy a gear cluster, or you can pay a shop with a full stock to do a ger-by-gear comparison as per above. Not all repairs can be done at home you know. There IS a reason professionals and shops exist.

Best of luck. :bigt:


Don't hide 'em, Ride 'em !!

RF Whatley
Cornelia, GA
Re: 72 tiger 650 5 speed Gear Identification #146488 08/10/08 6:08 pm
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John Healy Offline
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Just a reminder that not all 1972 speed models built by the factory using the earlier gear set were sold by the dealer with those gears.

Because there were no spare gear sets available for warranty dealers often stripped the gear sets out of the bike on the show room floor to honor warranties. The gear sets then replaced when the the new CP1000 gear set became available.

Also an awful lot of the 1972 speed gear sets suffered damage, some catastrophic, and were routinley replaced under terms of warrant.

So, unless you have physically examined the gear set in your 1972 model and confirmed that it is the early design, one cannot attribute trouble free service from the early 1972 early gear set.
j



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