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Oil Filter/cooler kit - anyone running this one?
#145687 07/26/08 2:52 am
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Hello again gentlemen,
I have on order (back order, actually) from my local chopper shop a universal oil filter/cooler kit. This is on page 376 of the V-Twin Manufacturing Product Reference Guide, part number 40-0098. Is anyone else running this kit on a 650 or 750 twin? It is not much of a cooler, really just a few fins on the filter housing. I am really interested in filtration and a larger oil capacity which of course in itself will let you run a bit cooler.
I saw a 650 chopper at my local Triumph shop with a blown engine only a short time after a rebuild. It was running the same kit. The mechanic, very competent and experienced, opined that it developed an air pocket due to the filter/cooler being mounted too high. I see that some of you have your filters mounted down by the swing arm pivot - vulnerable, but at least you won't form an air pocket down there.
Frankly I never heard of spontaneously forming an air pocket in the oil system; I wonder if the motor met with misfortune due to someone not filling the filter before putting it on after an oil change. Anyway as it is the same kit I have on order I am spooked. How about it, Prof. Whatley, are you familiar with this kit and what is your opinion? And where should I mount it?


1970 TR6R Dry Frame Silver and Blue, Prettiest bike ever....
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Re: Oil Filter/cooler kit - anyone running this one?
#145688 07/26/08 6:45 am
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Buster,

Sounds like the owner of the chopper had it mounted it in the feed side so it was working under suction - VERY bad idea. In the return line is where most fit them so they are working under compression.

Worry not - do a search here for plenty of info on filter systems.

Blapper redwine

Re: Oil Filter/cooler kit - anyone running this one?
#145689 07/26/08 12:03 pm
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Hiya Blap,
It was in the return line, but I don't remember if the top end supply line came off before or after the filter. I can't believe that someone would put a filter in the supply line of an oil pump. I have worked with lube oil systems on everything from power plants to aircraft carriers to submarines to cars and bikes....never seen anything more restrictive in the supply line than a screen to keep debris out. That could do it, though. It would reduce head to the oil pump and it's not like our oiling systems were overdesigned in the first place.
Now a nice DeLaval centrifugal separator like on old Rolls Royces, but driven by the drive chain, THAT would be nice laugh .....


1970 TR6R Dry Frame Silver and Blue, Prettiest bike ever....
Re: Oil Filter/cooler kit - anyone running this one?
#145690 07/26/08 12:43 pm
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Hi Buster,

Seems you're a connoisseur of lub systems, see what you think of this:

http://www.kirbyrowbotham.com/oilfilters.php

I have it on mine. The oil exits the timing cover after the pump, goes through the filter then back in to the end of the crank.

Some here don't like it, but with a properly engineered fitment and good choice of small neat filter, I rate it:

[Linked Image]

Stones eye view:
[Linked Image]

I also run an oil pressure guage from the same area as well as the pressure switch. The front of the engine looks like this:

[Linked Image]

Blapper redwine

Re: Oil Filter/cooler kit - anyone running this one?
#145691 07/26/08 1:03 pm
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Hey Blap, those nylon hoses look a bit on the skinny side, what diameter are they? I welded steel male ends onto my pump pipes and I've used -06 braided Speedflow hoses.

I've never had a pressure on any bike I've owned, I'm worried what I might see!

Re: Oil Filter/cooler kit - anyone running this one?
#145692 07/26/08 1:05 pm
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Of course what I meant to say was "I've never had a pressure GUAGE on any bike I've owned"

I must take more water with it...

Re: Oil Filter/cooler kit - anyone running this one?
#145693 07/26/08 3:05 pm
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Hi MM,

They are hydraulic hoses and fittings rated at many hundreds of PSI and as tough as heck. Gauge and oil lines are same spec. I protect them and where they could rub, but that's because I'm [email protected] about everything.

I ride bikes to get away from pressure.... wink

Blapper redwine

Re: Oil Filter/cooler kit - anyone running this one?
#145694 07/26/08 4:41 pm
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I ride bikes to get away from pressure!!!

yes you must to get away from the pressure of all those good looking babes that france has laughing :p bob s


Bob S
Street Rods, Kustom Kars,A BSA,Cushmans,H.Shadow ACE, Now a 2004 triumph america . "More than enough!!!!
Re: Oil Filter/cooler kit - anyone running this one?
#145695 07/26/08 6:31 pm
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Bob, we've got our share of swamp monsters around here too, but there are a few who I could risk a beatin' over..... wink

Blapper redwine

Re: Oil Filter/cooler kit - anyone running this one?
#145696 07/26/08 6:45 pm
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blap-----------for anyone who might be interested, i just email the address you put on this thread...you can't get the filter for a bsa, just triumph. and what does L168 mean in money??
no conversion chart.....i wouldn't use it enough thanks blap
bob s


Bob S
Street Rods, Kustom Kars,A BSA,Cushmans,H.Shadow ACE, Now a 2004 triumph america . "More than enough!!!!
Re: Oil Filter/cooler kit - anyone running this one?
#145697 07/27/08 1:27 am
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Hey Blap. That is a very, very sanitary setup, but I like the filter to get its pressure drop last, not first. I bet it works ok, though. The part about the pulses breaking down the filter material or whatever is merde du cheval.
I envy you there is France. I love the country and have many relatives in Lorraine.

But we digress-my question was, are any of you guys running this kit?


1970 TR6R Dry Frame Silver and Blue, Prettiest bike ever....
Re: Oil Filter/cooler kit - anyone running this one?
#145698 07/27/08 3:24 am
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Quote
Originally posted by Buster Conrod:

Now a nice DeLaval centrifugal separator like on old Rolls Royces, but driven by the drive chain, THAT would be nice laugh .....
You have a centrifugal seperator Buster, bugger of a thing to service but if you take the "big" stuff out with a spin on filter you should not have to.


1969 TR6R
7.62 x 51 is not a maths puzzle.
Re: Oil Filter/cooler kit - anyone running this one?
#145699 07/27/08 4:37 am
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Blapper, I wasn't questioning the pressure capability, it was just that a small diameter pipe or hose might restrict the flow rate. I can't remember if the pipes from and to the pump are 1/4" or 5/16ths, I used 5/16ths hose for my bike.

If they are hydraulic hoses please make sure they have a sufficient heat rating for engine oil. I replace loads of power steering and oil cooler hoses where the numpties at so-called hydraulic hose 'specialists' have used hose that's only rated to 90º, consequently it cooks, goes rock hard and falls apart, in some cases in under 12 months. The hose I use is rated to 300º!

Re: Oil Filter/cooler kit - anyone running this one?
#145700 07/27/08 6:43 am
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Hi MM,

I'll watch it when I start it for sure. The thin stuff is for the gauge, the 1/4" bore is to the filter. Kirby Rowbotham has sold about 450-500 of these worldwide, so he probably would have had some feedback by now! Seriously though, he built and maintains a 500 Triumph race bike which revs to 12000! He's no dunce I reckon. He also made my modified main bearings. I'll sure ask Kirby the spec now you've mentioned it though :bigt:

Buster,

I don't have pulses - I have a rotary oil pump to achieve higher pressures sooner, so no problems with horse sh*t here!

France is lovely, just like England and the States should be without all the scum. Somebody needs to do a study and export the reason worldwide. Shame they speak funny here though.... wink

Blapper redwine

Re: Oil Filter/cooler kit - anyone running this one?
#145701 07/27/08 1:40 pm
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Blap, I think that is a very nice setup, but if one is not going to that extreme the next best thing is to put the filter in the return line, since you don't affect the rod bearing pressure whatsoever; the scavenge pump is bigger and has less to do - only to return the oil and send a wee bit to the top end.
I see that you are running the dreaded rotary oil pump (which I now dub the DROP), the mere existance of which causes global warming, pestilence, and athelete's foot according to this forum. Let me know how that works out. I have always felt that the predictions of doom were overstated. Maybe it will tend to wetsump more without an anti-flowback valve, like a Norton.

And yes, I know I have a rotary oil separator. It was a crackerjack idea back in 1938 when you probably tore down the engine every other year. But now it is like having your toenails grow next to your liver and having to do major surgery just to trim them. The issue is the location and servicing!


1970 TR6R Dry Frame Silver and Blue, Prettiest bike ever....
Re: Oil Filter/cooler kit - anyone running this one?
#145702 07/27/08 3:02 pm
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Hi Everybody,

Has anyone tried running an oil cooler on a completely different line from lube system?

I am looking for an electric powered pump to circulate oil. But that chain driven idea is interesting. That way one might add a chain tensioner also to keep chain from jumping around and hitting that nut.


Bob, Lifetime bike: '71 T120R, bought in '71 at Ken Heanes, England.
Re: Oil Filter/cooler kit - anyone running this one?
#145703 07/27/08 5:43 pm
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Buster,

The DROP (!) does have a non-return valve, which is why you have to purge the system of air before sarting the engine. Morgo told me that if you take it out, the tiny amount of oil that would drain down on a daily rider would be so guickly returned to the tank on start-up it wouldn't be a problem at all, but as most aren't daily riders, it is necessary.

I agree the return line filter is a good set-up too.

Bob:

The return line IS an entirely separate line from the lube system! wink ! Mine returns through a cooler. Wanna see a snap?

Blapper redwine

Re: Oil Filter/cooler kit - anyone running this one?
#145704 07/27/08 9:25 pm
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Blap, that is interesting that the DROP has a built in anti flowback feature.

Btour, I see what you are getting at about a separate line, pump, and cooler. I was joking about the chain driven DeLaval oil purifier but a small electric pump and some imaginative plumbing could make for an interesting way of cooling oil. Or maybe somehing driven by engine vibration like the old watches that wound themselves from the motion of your wrist.

I once saw in a pile of parts at a swap meet a Triumph oil tank with a spin on filter right in the middle of it! Ugly but a neat job. Must have been a one off as I have never seen or heard of another. Just shows that there are some creative minds out there.


1970 TR6R Dry Frame Silver and Blue, Prettiest bike ever....
Re: Oil Filter/cooler kit - anyone running this one?
#145705 07/27/08 9:30 pm
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Thats great filter set-up you have blap.
Just a little to pricey for me $300.00, is a lot a scratch when your retired eek smile
bob s


Bob S
Street Rods, Kustom Kars,A BSA,Cushmans,H.Shadow ACE, Now a 2004 triumph america . "More than enough!!!!
Re: Oil Filter/cooler kit - anyone running this one?
#145706 07/27/08 10:02 pm
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Hi Blap,

I didn't realise it was one of KR's conversions. The narrow plastic hose is fine for the guage, there's not enough oil there to for the heat to be an issue. I think I'm with Tiger on this one though - I'm not a big fan of drilling into the timing cover and ruining it's gorgeous looks!

Re: Oil Filter/cooler kit - anyone running this one?
#145707 07/28/08 6:27 am
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Hey Mels,

The rear hole is hidden by the gearbox cover and the front one looks way better than with that ugly switch sticking out surely!

Blapper redwine

Re: Oil Filter/cooler kit - anyone running this one?
#145708 07/28/08 7:06 am
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G'day, there are a few other options u can use....

[Linked Image]
this unit when place in the correct position can be a useful oil cooler as well.

[Linked Image]
this is an oil cooler/filter from wimmer cycle. Generally made for Harley/ v-twin but can be easily used for brit bikes.

[Linked Image]
these are twin oil coolers that come in several chrome/black colours, i think these r from wimmer as well?
cheers GUY


51'/53'/58' A10 Plunger(frankenbsa) Golden Flash
Re: Oil Filter/cooler kit - anyone running this one?
#145709 07/28/08 11:23 am
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I have serious reservations re oil pumps that push most of their delivery flow back into the timing case via the OPRV to then be scavenged unused.

Scavenge pumps aerate oil, after moderate speed running I have suctioned the oil tank of my TR6 to get about 1 litre of neat oil from the bottom of the tank and the remainder aerated.

My bike is dry frame with a large "top of tank" surface area for aerated oil to overcome surface tension and deaerate, the OIF lacks that surface area and also total oil capacity.

There has not been a pump invented that can handle excessive suction restriction due to the fact that all depend on nominal 101kpa atmospheric pressure to drive oil [or whatever] into the pump, and all fluids have a vapour pressure which varies with temperature.

All that excess oil back into the timing case also loads up the suction side.

Aerated oil into the suction port of the pump could well stall the pump.

Google "cavitation in positive displacement pumps".

On the delivery side a positive displacement pump knows no such restrictions and is only limited by available driver power, cold oil in a 3X [required volume] pump will surely load up whatever has to spin it, thankfully not the std alloy drive block off the intake cam ?.

I would not bet money but I reckon a long hard run will see the engine "self dismantle".


1969 TR6R
7.62 x 51 is not a maths puzzle.
Re: Oil Filter/cooler kit - anyone running this one?
#145710 07/28/08 11:39 am
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Interesting theory Tiger, but that's all it is.

I reckon we would have heard about peoples engines 'self dismantling' before now if the concept of the Morgo Super Rotary was so fundamentally flawed though, don't you? They have been around for many years now, not just the last couple of weeks.

I have heard them being blamed for many things by people here, but that is a new one to me.

Also, the flow rates of modern engines are MANY times what even the 'DROP' can attain, without problems. Possibly the aeration caused by the timing wheels is greater than that caused by the pump?

Blapper redwine

Re: Oil Filter/cooler kit - anyone running this one?
#145711 07/29/08 3:28 am
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I run the same set up but with a map filter and plunger 4 valve pump with no problems at all to 8700 rpms. :bigt:


Tim Joyce
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