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Re: powder coating #135122 02/16/08 6:01 am
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Marvin E. Woody Offline
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I am always gratified to see the broad level of expertise available on this site!
Back in the late 70's, I had most of the parts of my "blueprinted" 1965 Corvair engine powder-coated black. The upper and lower shrouds, the blower, other misc parts. After running across the Southwest, daily driving in the DFW area of Texas and also into the dreaded "East", it always looked pristine. This engine ran thirty-three thousand miles from start-up.. until dropping a valve seat. (No Lead gas) I believe you could have seared a steak on my upper shroud after climbing up from Phoenix to Winslow, AZ. In July! The powder-coat still looked beautiful when I sold it in 1995. But aluminum cases? It's quality would be "iffy".... in my opinion as stated by others. As for black, It radiates heat maximally!


1979 T140E
1994 Cadillac ETC
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Re: powder coating #135123 02/16/08 9:34 am
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Blapper Offline
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Hi Marvin,

Good to have the reassurance about temperatures the coating will withstand. What coating was it that you used?

Regarding the colour, what you said is correct, but only half the story. Heatsinks used in the electronics industry are anodised black because anodising has no insulative properties at all, whereas polyester and other plastics do. That is irrefutable. Although yours and others experience and expertise is pointing in the direction that the plastic you have used to coat your engines with will withstand the temperatures without failing as a finish, my point is that the heat dissipation of the surfaces it is used on is hindered - not helped - by this layer of plastic.

Don't get me wrong, I am quite excited about the possibility of using this finish at some stage, but have a concern that extra oil flow or cooling may have to be used to protect the engine.

If anybody out there has pictures of a bike done like this, I would love to see them!

Blapper redwine

Re: powder coating #135124 02/16/08 4:04 pm
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GrandPaul Online Content
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If you are going to go ahead and do it (and it sounds like you are), AFTER the thorough cleaning processes, it's easy enough to use the powdercoater's tape to mask one face of one case, leaving a good 1/2" of tape sticking out beyond the outer face all the way around.

Tape off the outer covers in the same manner.

Then bolt them together with 2 or 3 evenly spaced bolts, which leaves a "fin" all the way around the mating joint. the cases will pull apart cleanly with nary a gap in the finished coating when re-mated. Same with the covers.

You need to carefully tape off all bearing surfaces and the spigot mouth.

Be sure to post pictures of the masked items at the pre-coat stage.


GrandPaul (does not use emoticons)
Author of the book "Old Bikes"
Too many bikes to list, mostly Triumph & Norton, some BSA & European
"The Iron in your blood should be Vintage"
Re: powder coating #135125 02/16/08 6:58 pm
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Tri-Hook Offline OP
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GrandPaul, great tip!
I had wondered about that ,but no one said anything about it. I was ready to mask everything .
I'am going over the powder coater next week and talk to him about all the stuff I've learned .This guy does Harley cases for a custom builder , so I think he is on to what I'am doing and he good to talk to , he wants to do it right so the paying customer is happy. The guy is retired and more less doing this to keep busy ,so he don't act like someone who just wants to get the job done and grab the $$$$$.
I'll take pix , keep track of how it goes and post it , hey, if it goes in the toliet, mad
I may just send you the cases eek
I been "thinkin" for some time now that I need an all Black bike, always been more of a paint guy as opposed to chrome.


Ronnie
Mostly Triumphs
Re: powder coating #135126 02/16/08 7:56 pm
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Blapper Offline
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I just had my frame, swingarm and misc.black bits powder coated and did the masking myself. The good news is that the masking kept the grit and paint out of the OIF, but here is the surprise:

I thought - as powder coating is an electro static process - that using wooden discs (ply) with a bolt through the centre to mask the headstock and swingarm areas would be the way to go but when I picked it all up I found that the powder had coated the wood and so formed a jagged hard edge when I had broken them off the frame! You may not have to break them off the frame because you are using the right tape, but the edge would be VERY difficult to control IME.

I REALLY think you need to do a trial run with some other cases or whatever because I reckon your best chance is to mask so that the gasket face is painted as I mentioned above and Hawaiian Tiger (who does it himself) agreed.

It's your choice of course, but that is not what GrandPaul is suggesting and I would fully expect you to end up with ugly silver lines round all the gasket faces if you go that way.

C'mon chaps - waddyareckon?

Blapper redwine

Re: powder coating #135127 02/17/08 5:50 pm
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gudgean Offline
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plan on polishing my 5ta cases to a mirror finish then powdercoating clear.i'm a powdercoater ,and have done jap cases and hd parts and the problem ive found is porosity.

alumi parts are very porous and will take alot of prep work for a quality job.outgassing is the the most critical step with alumi parts as thay will expand and contract with heat.i outgass alumi parts at least twice at 300 degrees for around 1 hr a piece.then acetone wash or mek.then water wash,then acetone again.polish,acetone again,outgas again for 40min.let cool then shoot pc and cure part at 385/400 for whatever the pc manufacturer suggests

i use a 5to 7 step pre process before powdercoating


karls custom coatings
Re: powder coating #135128 02/17/08 6:00 pm
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Blapper Offline
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Hey Gudgean,

Well, that is surprising. I would have thought a blasted finish would be better as mechanical adhesion/chip resistance would be improved?

Can you explain the rationale behind your method please?

Cheers,

Blapper redwine

Re: powder coating #135129 02/17/08 6:19 pm
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J Rowe Offline
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Just had the frame on my T150 powder coated. Owner of the business has over 15K in hardware on his shelf he uses to block all openings and he puts a correct threaded bolt in every threaded holw so as to have clean threaded holes when done. Job was excellent.


'74 Trident in process of restoration
'78 T140V in slow process of restoration
'07 R1200RT, Biarritz Blue
Re: powder coating #135130 02/17/08 9:00 pm
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HawaiianTiger Offline
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Clear powdercoating on polished aluminum is an excellent idea provided you can take all the steps necessary to insure that corrosion will not re-emerge under your powder coat. It would be highly visible! Doing this for customers can be a study in poor business practices and frustration. It is very difficult to warrantee some ancient porous piece of English melted down aircraft aluminum and expect it to last. Basically as a powdercoater it would be wise to advise the customer that you would do your best but long term life of the powdercoat could always be in question.

Polyester resin forms a continuous film bond on the substrate so roughened surfaces are not necessary. In acutallity the powder will not deposit reliably nor will it flow out nicely on really rough surfaces due to a multitude of microscopic faraday cage effects at the surface.
Be advised. Coarse grit blasting will make it difficult to achieve that smooth paint-like finish.
Bill


Bikes
1974 Commando
1985 Honda Nighthawk 650
1957 Thunderbird/T110 "Black Tiger"
Antique Fans: Loads of Emersons (Two six wingers) plus gyros and orbiters.
Re: powder coating #135131 02/17/08 9:34 pm
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Blapper Offline
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Hi Bill,

Interesting points you made. My frame was coarse blasted, yet is glass smooth. My concern about a key was because of the effect of tightening screws onto the powdercoat and shearing the coating off the surface?

Blapper redwine

Re: powder coating #135132 02/18/08 1:50 am
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HawaiianTiger Offline
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I don't know of a test for adhesion but you can dip a Q-tip in a mixture of lacquer thinner and MEK and swab the surface of the powdercoat to test if it has been cured for the right amount of time and the right temperature. Color will show on the swab if it is not cured correctly. Uncured powdercoat is softer than cured and just might not have good adhesion as well.

I used to demonstrate the toughness of PC to my customers with a piece of powdercoated aluminum and a hammer. I never once got a chip after banging away at it.
Bill


Bikes
1974 Commando
1985 Honda Nighthawk 650
1957 Thunderbird/T110 "Black Tiger"
Antique Fans: Loads of Emersons (Two six wingers) plus gyros and orbiters.
Re: powder coating #135133 02/18/08 4:12 am
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gudgean Offline
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hey blapper:mechanical adhesion is really the best way to go but with polished alumi you take what you can get.i have powdercoated new billet stuff ,factory polished,and taking it through the prep process seemed to be enough.i wouldnt say this at all if i hadnt done it myself.havent had anything come back to me through coating failure.also polished and prepped a bunch of old jap parts and found no matter what i did it would outgas on me and leave pinholes and bubbles in the powder

tigger :the point you make on corrosion is a good one although if you had corrosion under the coating it would crack and eventually fail.as far as pc not adhereing to british alumi,,the only english parts i have experience with is a set of wheels from a triumph tr6 car.polished and cleared and paid for.the customer loved it and i give all parts a 1 year warranty from date of pick up.so far no problem.i charged him well because polishing is not a fun job.roughened surfaces are no prblem at all and farraday normally does not present a problem accept in curves and pockets and hard to reach areas.the biggest problem ive had with flow out simply is not enough or too much powder in one area and not others.

also blasting alumi can embed blasting material in the soft Al which becomes a very big problem the part reaches temp and the metal expands thereby releasing the blast material and any thing else that is left embeded in the metal from too high air pressure.found that with old harley parts.that stuff is porous.coarse blasted material will flow smooth if the powder is applied properly.i havent found a piece yet that the blasting was the cause of a rough finish.some pc'ers will tell a rub that because the person brought it to the shop already blasted and took the labor of that step away from the pc shop,and they will not guarantee it

the q tip in thinner or mek or acetone will only tell you if the pc is cured,not if it has adhered properly.the pc will start to dissolve with 5to10 wipes of the q tip.if its not cured properly it will not stay adhered to the part.quick fix,put it back in the oven for a full cure cycle.

there seem to be a bunch of guys on the site that have pc experience,id like to find others here who have the experience of pc on old british parts


karls custom coatings
Re: powder coating #135134 02/18/08 7:46 am
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Blapper Offline
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Hey Gudgean,

Excellent answers, seems you know your beans.

Kinda wish this posting had come up in time for me to coat my cases! Although I am concerned about two thicknesses of coating on the centre crankcase joint.....

Hopefully Tri-hook will do this and post pics, or perhaps you have some?

Blapper redwine

Re: powder coating #135135 02/18/08 5:03 pm
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gudgean Offline
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if you do what grandpaul said you shouldnt have any problems with mating surfaces.once its all bolted together you can knock down high spots and polish like paint.

sorry no pics at this time


karls custom coatings
Re: powder coating #135136 02/18/08 5:15 pm
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Blapper Offline
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Gudgean,

Doesn't that leave a lip that is difficult to shape and then a silver line?

Can you comment on powdercoating the mating faces and flattening the paint after? Obviously only possible on flat faces, but whaddyareckon?

Blapper redwine

Re: powder coating #135137 02/19/08 1:12 am
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HawaiianTiger Offline
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Gudgean,
I powder coat Bitish parts, but just my own. There aren't enough Brit bike owners here to give me much business. Some HD stuff and whatnot. I don't aim to make a business out of it, just pick up some cash for my projects mostly. I do my own Brit stuff and if you have any questions regarding what I've done on old English bikes I'd be happy to share the experience. Mostly, I have to say, it's a lot of work!
Bill


Bikes
1974 Commando
1985 Honda Nighthawk 650
1957 Thunderbird/T110 "Black Tiger"
Antique Fans: Loads of Emersons (Two six wingers) plus gyros and orbiters.
Re: powder coating #135138 02/19/08 2:59 am
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Tri-Hook Offline OP
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I'm trying to take this all in before meeting with my powder coater. Hopefully Tues.

I have had two sets of cases blasted and one set just cleaned. My question is which is the way to go , blast or not blast ??

I was planning on the same finish as on my Harley's , so I didn't think I needed to worry about the roughness. Should I polish them first or leave them alone ? Also , I am planning on doing a set in gloss , don't mind some texture , just mostly looking for a good , long lasting surface that doesn't come off like paint will.

I was planning on tape on the cases and putting them to gether ( doing all at once if my powder coater was ok with that.

I appreciate all the good advice .


Ronnie
Mostly Triumphs
Re: powder coating #135139 02/19/08 3:10 am
Joined: Oct 2006
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Bob S Offline
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TRI-HOOK...........Just have them ,glass beaded, this sets the part up; for a good clinging surface for the powdercoat, it flows out thick, your only job is to make sure there are no serious gouges ,or scratchs . It will fill really quite good,,,,,,,,,,,,oh and btw, its cheaper than paint and those cases will stay nice. some these p.c,ers, are dinks charging way to much, because "joe public" don`t know the ropes. I`ve done a ton of it. theres to much nit piking; on something thats not a big deal.
JMO. HTH


Bob S
Street Rods, Kustom Kars,A BSA,Cushmans,H.Shadow ACE, Now a 2004 triumph america . "More than enough!!!!
Re: powder coating #135140 02/19/08 4:31 am
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gudgean Offline
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blapper:that lip can be scribed down with a razor knife,wet sanded then polished.this can be done whether you use clear pc or colored.that little line running down through the middle will be there anyway because of the gasket.as for pc the mating surface,,,cant say how that will work out.i believe that doing that would screw up the fit and clearances with all other parts.

tri hook:the only real reason for polishing is if your going to clear coat.make sure the fella knows his stuff and has had the experience of not just one or two sets of cases and old brit cases as well.you see jap alumi from the 70/80 era and harley parts from the 30/whenever are different animals altogether than old brit stuff it seems.of course i havent yet had the pleasure of doing my cases yet.lol

one more word of advice.if you do decide to polish these,do it yourself.you wont be happy with it unless you do.then have it pc'd......polishing sux though


karls custom coatings
Re: powder coating #135141 02/19/08 4:35 am
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gudgean Offline
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OH and tigger,thanx man ,will do!


karls custom coatings
Re: powder coating #135142 02/19/08 4:49 am
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gary a melhorn Offline
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BOY HOWDY after reading all I want to see some pic's looks good in the minds eye

Re: powder coating #135143 02/19/08 5:07 am
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gudgean Offline
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cant figure how to post on this site.try here:

http://www.freewebs.com/karlscustomcoatings/index.htm

sign the guest book please.


karls custom coatings
Re: powder coating #135144 02/19/08 10:14 pm
Joined: Jul 2006
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J
J. Charles Smith Online Content
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[Linked Image] In this thread on February 14, I posted a note about using KG Coatings "Gun-Kote," but neglected to give any details about the process. The main thing about Gun-Kote, and one of its main advantages, is that it does not chip because it seems to be composed of individual particles that do not have a bonding agent, as would paint or powdercoat (which I intend to use on my T140 cafe frame and bits). Before Kal-Gard was bought out by KG Coatings, Gun-Kote came in a spray can. Now you need a spray gun. Prep is pretty simple. Though blasting certainly wouldn't hurt, all you really have to do is get the surface thoroughly clean. I washed the parts with Simple Green, then sprayed them off with brake cleaner, then ran them through the dishwasher. You then heat the parts in the oven to about 120 degrees F so that there is less chance of drips, then spray the parts. (The company says only a .0004" thickness is needed, but I was new to using a spray gun and probably laid it on quite a lot thicker.) Then the parts need to be baked for roughly an hour at 325 degrees. Higher temps for longer will make for an even harder surface, but might cause a slight color change. The finish is very hard and is available in a wide variety of colors. I used the "Satin Gray" for this head, which was ported and assembled by the GREAT Tom Sharp. HTH

Re: powder coating #135145 02/19/08 10:17 pm
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J
J. Charles Smith Online Content
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[Linked Image]

Another view. The yellow tint is the lighting.

Re: powder coating #135146 02/19/08 10:20 pm
Joined: Jul 2006
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J. Charles Smith Online Content
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[Linked Image] This is so much fun, I thought I'd post another!

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