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powder coating #135096
02/13/08 3:19 pm
02/13/08 3:19 pm
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 24
Knoxville,Tennessee
Tri-Hook Offline OP
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Knoxville,Tennessee
I was getting ready to powder coat a complete set of cases in black for a 1970 Bonneville.
Just wondered if anyone had done this and what I
might have problems with ! confused
Not a numbers matching bike , just pieces from
here and there.


Ronnie
Mostly Triumphs
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Re: powder coating #135097
02/13/08 4:07 pm
02/13/08 4:07 pm
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 857
Central Virginia
T120C Offline
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Central Virginia
Why would you??? confused


Jack
1967 MGB Roadster..
1959 Bonnie
1967 Bonnie in disguise as a Trophy
Re: powder coating #135098
02/13/08 4:30 pm
02/13/08 4:30 pm
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 24
Knoxville,Tennessee
Tri-Hook Offline OP
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Knoxville,Tennessee
I was looking to do an all Black engine.
Seen some in the past that were painted and the paint was coming off , looking bad.


Ronnie
Mostly Triumphs
Re: powder coating #135099
02/13/08 6:28 pm
02/13/08 6:28 pm
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 4,542
Kent UK
Blapper Offline
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If you do it and don't like it or it doesn't work, you can always blast it off again. Sounds good to me, can't wait to see it!

One problem I would think about it that it will form a layer of insulation around the engine so you may have to add a cooler as well as the filter that you should have already added to the engine.

Blapper redwine

Re: powder coating #135100
02/13/08 6:51 pm
02/13/08 6:51 pm
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 6,396
Maui Hawaii
HawaiianTiger Offline
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Maui Hawaii
Where's mythbuster's when you need them? A layer of insulation? I seriously doubt that 10mil of polyester provides any insulation whatsoever compared to say 1/4 to 1/2 inch of solid aluminum? ??? The problem with powdercoating aluminum lies in the quality of the substrate. If you are going to powdercoat old aluminum the amount of work involved in getting out all the contamination and oxidation is the downer here. If the shop taking on this work downplays this then the you must suspect the quality(read durability) of their work. I've been powdercoating for a few years now and aluminum especially old aluminum subjected to the elements is my greatest challenge. There are techniques that improve the quality of the finish, but quite frankly powdercoating old aluminum can be a real crap shoot.
Bill


Bikes
1974 Commando
1985 Honda Nighthawk 650
1957 Thunderbird/T110 "Flying Tiger"
Antique Fans: Loads of Emersons (Two six wingers) plus gyros and orbiters.
Re: powder coating #135101
02/13/08 7:01 pm
02/13/08 7:01 pm
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 4,542
Kent UK
Blapper Offline
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Like I said Bill, it is something I would think about. Whatever these insulating effects of 1/4"-1/2" of aluminium are, it cannot be denied that there will be some reduction in the heat dissipation to some extent by adding a layer of plastic to the outside. Powder coating to improve dissipation isn't a normal prectice.

With regard to powder coating old ali, I would blast it back before painting even though you do get left with a lot of cleaning afterwards that needs VERY carefull attention.

Blapper redwine

Re: powder coating #135102
02/13/08 7:15 pm
02/13/08 7:15 pm
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 1,211
Tulsa, Oklahoma, USA
S
Steve in Tulsa Offline
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Posts: 1,211
Tulsa, Oklahoma, USA
The only problem I can think of is heat resistance. Check with the powder coater about deterioration and chipping from direct engine contact.
Would you be better of with a high heat enamel ?


Steve in Tulsa
Re: powder coating #135104
02/13/08 8:01 pm
02/13/08 8:01 pm
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 4,542
Kent UK
Blapper Offline
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Whenever I have enquired about anodising the cases of a bike I have always had the same answer - the colour varies over its surface because of the variability of the material.

Blapper redwine

Re: powder coating #135105
02/13/08 10:31 pm
02/13/08 10:31 pm
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 196
home of grits and gnats...Sout...
S
slofut Offline
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S

Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 196
home of grits and gnats...Sout...
My friend Jon in tallahassee strictly forbids me to powder anything that's subject to heat dissipation requirements, specifically engine cases, heads, cylinders, and brake drums. Yep, I know I just posted a question about powdering front brake drums, but it's 'cause I'm stubborn and wanted to hear other horror stories before heeding his advice (which has been nothing but spot on so far!). And yep, against his advice I did powder the rear brake drum, but I haven't ridden her yet and maybe it'll be ok, we'll see... Anodising sounds like the trick for cases.


'68 Bonnie
'74 CL360
trail 70's and minitrails
Re: powder coating #135106
02/13/08 11:12 pm
02/13/08 11:12 pm
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 3,017
, Lower -Lower michigan
Bob S Offline
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Bob S  Offline
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, Lower -Lower michigan
slofut-------------I`ve powder coated drums and everything else ,anything that don`t have massive heat, no problem, your like me occasionally , you have two posts on the same thing, these guys will be after ya.Why do you think they put large fins, on them they will keep those drums cool.lest------- you be racing.
b scharp


Bob S
Street Rods, Kustom Kars,A BSA,Cushmans,H.Shadow ACE, Now a 2004 triumph america . "More than enough!!!!
Re: powder coating #135107
02/14/08 12:35 am
02/14/08 12:35 am
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 6,396
Maui Hawaii
HawaiianTiger Offline
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Maui Hawaii
I'd like to say just once again that there is no reason to avoid powdercoating on anything that is meant to radiate heat unless the temp is expected to exceed about 250 degrees F for extended periods. At that point polyester resins will go soft and the finish will suffer. I've PC'd numerous cylinders and heads as well as brake drums with no adverse effects, bar none. If anything, black is known to radiate heat better than reflective surfaces. If you want to see an engine really get hot chrome plate primary covers, timing covers and rocker boxes or evern engine cases. They get HOT!!
Bill


Bikes
1974 Commando
1985 Honda Nighthawk 650
1957 Thunderbird/T110 "Flying Tiger"
Antique Fans: Loads of Emersons (Two six wingers) plus gyros and orbiters.
Re: powder coating #135108
02/14/08 1:02 am
02/14/08 1:02 am
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 3,017
, Lower -Lower michigan
Bob S Offline
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you hit the nail on the head hawaiian tiger, my sentiments too
b scharp


Bob S
Street Rods, Kustom Kars,A BSA,Cushmans,H.Shadow ACE, Now a 2004 triumph america . "More than enough!!!!
Re: powder coating #135109
02/14/08 1:55 am
02/14/08 1:55 am
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 24
Knoxville,Tennessee
Tri-Hook Offline OP
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Knoxville,Tennessee
Thats what I wanted ,oppinions !

The P.C. shop has put this set of cases in the oven 2)times now,(trying to get out the old oil), they been blasted ( I know some of you are apposed to that) , they have also been steam cleaned.

Starting to seem like alot of trouble, but the shop has done this before .But I have seen a couple of all black engines and I just think they look great (that is on custom or street trackers ) .

I got this frame in one place and the engine at another , so I thought this is the perfect street tracker !
I got the out side cases in black powder on a Bobber , and they look great and seem to be doing alright.

Sure would like to ride it around one of them Islands in the Pacfic !! Was over there on the Big Island a couple years ago in Jan. Had loads of fun ridin a rented bike then. Ofcourse it wasn't an old Triumph !


Ronnie
Mostly Triumphs
Re: powder coating #135110
02/14/08 1:58 am
02/14/08 1:58 am
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 24
Knoxville,Tennessee
Tri-Hook Offline OP
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Knoxville,Tennessee
One thing I was really lookin for was , if I put all the cases together ( outsides all in place ) will I have trouble getting them apart and leave a clean line at the edge of the cases ??


Ronnie
Mostly Triumphs
Re: powder coating #135111
02/14/08 7:35 am
02/14/08 7:35 am
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 4,542
Kent UK
Blapper Offline
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Well if H.T. has it right about the 250C, you don't have a problem with heat and I am sure looking forward to seeing it finished with nice stainless screws, it'll look coool! Do yourself a favour and get one of those thermometer oil dipsticks from MAP (not expensive) and check the oil temp so you can ride in peace knowing that the motor is as cool as it looks eh? We don't need another horror story of money/time precious old metal being wasted!

The only advice I can give about the joints is use a black spirit pen to dye standard gaskets black and use high melting point grease on them to stop 'em sticking?

Blapper redwine

Re: powder coating #135112
02/14/08 12:49 pm
02/14/08 12:49 pm
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 24
Knoxville,Tennessee
Tri-Hook Offline OP
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Tri-Hook  Offline OP
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Joined: Nov 2007
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Knoxville,Tennessee
Good idea on the painting of the gaskets.

I was really trying to find out how hard it would be to separate the cases when I get them back from the powder coating. That stuff is suppost to be so hard . I was putting all the cases together to do all at once and not have to mask off so much of the inside of the cases. I heard that some take a razor blade to cut where the cases will split, but I havn't seen it done. I wouldn't want ragged edges at the cases.

Thanks for the replies


Ronnie
Mostly Triumphs
Re: powder coating #135113
02/14/08 4:02 pm
02/14/08 4:02 pm
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 4,542
Kent UK
Blapper Offline
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Posts: 4,542
Kent UK
Oh crikey yeah, you must mask the interior, you will never get the cases apart without ruining the finish if you try powder coating 'ensemble'! Mask the interior completely so that the gasket face is painted. You can always flatten the paint by putting some sheets of 300+ grit paper on plate glass to restore them to flat, in fact, you should do that first too, so you don't end up going through the paint trying to flatten a bowed case.

Very interesting project.

HTH

Blapper redwine

Re: powder coating #135114
02/14/08 7:48 pm
02/14/08 7:48 pm
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 6,396
Maui Hawaii
HawaiianTiger Offline
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Maui Hawaii
One of the advantages I have over other powdercoaters is that I am a bike guy. There's no way I would cause you the kind of trouble you are worried about. The cases should be coated and cooked separately with a huge amount of time spent making sure the powder goes where it should and doesn't where it shouldn't. There are two apporaches to this though you should be aware of. As you probably know, HD powdercoats most of there bikes engines from top to bottom now and the method they use mostly is to coat the bare castings first then machine them. So every machined suface is shiney aluminum and it shows around gasket surfaces. Go to the HD shop and check it out. It is a certain aesthetic they accept and the it seems joe blow does too. Covering every single square inch is jus not practical for a factory to do. You could do like the factories do and just accept some bare alum. here and there or go through the extra work of blacking out everything. Your choice here.
Bill


Bikes
1974 Commando
1985 Honda Nighthawk 650
1957 Thunderbird/T110 "Flying Tiger"
Antique Fans: Loads of Emersons (Two six wingers) plus gyros and orbiters.
Re: powder coating #135115
02/14/08 8:10 pm
02/14/08 8:10 pm
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 4,542
Kent UK
Blapper Offline
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So Bill,
What do you reckon to what I said - powder coating after flattening cases where possible then 'knocking the peaks off' after coating? I do have a small concern about designed dimensions changing, but hopefully not by much eh?

Blapper redwine

Re: powder coating #135116
02/14/08 9:18 pm
02/14/08 9:18 pm
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 6,396
Maui Hawaii
HawaiianTiger Offline
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Posts: 6,396
Maui Hawaii
Blapper. Possible. Expect 10-20 mils of extra thickness intially. Some powders have a unique property of depositing thicker at outside corners exactly the opposite of how paint behaves. That gives you a little more thickness at the gasket surfaces probably. Never done it that way. Worth looking into to.
Bill


Bikes
1974 Commando
1985 Honda Nighthawk 650
1957 Thunderbird/T110 "Flying Tiger"
Antique Fans: Loads of Emersons (Two six wingers) plus gyros and orbiters.
Re: powder coating #135117
02/14/08 10:17 pm
02/14/08 10:17 pm
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 554
west central ohio where all be...
D
drp Offline
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D

Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 554
west central ohio where all be...
There a few things I would be concerned about if I was considering powder coating the cases; surface preparation, the temperature used to dry off (de gas) the cases after they are cleaned and the masking issues.

In order to get good adhesion a "top notch" shop will go through a 3-5 stage pretreatment process including an alkaline clean, freshwater rinse, a phosphate coating (probably iron phosphate) fresh water rinse and then a final freshwater rinse. Sometimes, especially on dirty aluminum they may do a de-smutting process to do a better job removing oils.

Aluminum sand castings (and die castings) are never as dense as steel and there will probably be voids in the metal. These voids sometimes expand and if this happens after the powder is applied it causes porosity (bubbles) on the surface of the part. Powder shops that coat castings normally degas the casting prior to powder coating at a temperature about the same as the powder cure temperature (350 - 400 F). Sometimes this works and sometimes it doesn't.

Masking is the most difficult. I wouldn't even attempt to coat the assembled cases. If they were cleaned in a decent pretreatment process you would never get all of the water out. Powder has an irritating way of going everywhere (threads, bearing fits, gasket surfaces, etc). This is why Harley machines their parts after powder coating. If I was coating the parts I would use high temperature adhesive film (www.shercon.com) on all of the machined surfaces and rubber masking plugs in all of the holes and on the threads. Then I would be prepared to chase all of the threads after this was finished (you will probably wreck the taps and dies).

After spending 15 years as an engineer and manager powder coating die cast aluminum wheels and high end appliance parts I can only say that powder coating somewhat rare engine cases is not for the faint of heart. I would be more inclined to get some good high temp solvent borne paint, scrub the cases down with MEK and shot them. There is no question that powder would look better (especially wrinkle black) and really will hold up but is it worth the risk?

Dave

Re: powder coating #135118
02/14/08 10:26 pm
02/14/08 10:26 pm
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 554
west central ohio where all be...
D
drp Offline
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D

Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 554
west central ohio where all be...
And if you do powder coat the cases remember to mask the VIN numbers, especially if this is what your state uses for licensing. The 10-20 mils will fill the markings.

Dave

Re: powder coating #135119
02/14/08 10:41 pm
02/14/08 10:41 pm
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 1,122
Westminster, MD, USA
J
J. Charles Smith Offline
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Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 1,122
Westminster, MD, USA
You have another choice for a black finish that will not have any of the problems of paint, powdercoating, or anodizing. I have used Gun-Kote on engines since the early '70s. Check out www.kgcoatings.com and look at their 2400 series. beerchug

Re: powder coating #135120
02/15/08 7:42 am
02/15/08 7:42 am
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 4,542
Kent UK
Blapper Offline
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Hey Charles,
Very interesting company! Their products especially the 2400 series sound interesting, but I don't think there is enough information about the process, preparartion, materials it will work on, or it's suitability on sandcastings? Am I missing something?

As you have been using it, perhaps you could give us more info and pics? You could discuss it with them and return the outcome to us here?

Blapper redwine

Re: powder coating #135121
02/16/08 5:18 am
02/16/08 5:18 am
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 24
Knoxville,Tennessee
Tri-Hook Offline OP
BritBike Forum
Tri-Hook  Offline OP
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Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 24
Knoxville,Tennessee
Charles , interesting but I also was wondering about the procedure. Can one do this himself , at a home shop or do you have to buy a lot of stuff to get the job done.

I'am still giving the Powder coat a try on one set of cases . And we'll see how it goes.
Thanks for all the tips and info , Hiawaii is alittle far or I'll let you do the job H.T.


Ronnie
Mostly Triumphs
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