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Mystery engine
#116513 05/21/07 6:50 pm
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http://i189.photobucket.com/albums/z84/bodlan/IMG_1068.jpg

http://s189.photobucket.com/albums/z84/bodlan/

I hope that this works(the photos that is)
I've got hold of a bike that started life as a T120V but has had an engine swap at sometime. The bike goes very well but the engine is a mystery because as you can see it does not have an engine number stamped on the L/H side casing. How can this be? The DVLA at Swansea (remember I'm in the UK)have the engine as DU13368 on the registration documents but as you can see from the other photos (hopefully)it has a much later head so it cant be a 64 engine, or could it?
Can any of you long time experts identify this engine year from any other of the features that I have photographed. Can you get a 70's head onto a 64 bottom end?
Maybe the bloke who did this swap is out there looking at this post. What did you do with the original engine mate. Build a 5 speed Triton maybe?
Any help or information gratefully received.


Dave
Tiger 100SS 1966
T120V 1972
Vincent Comet 1952
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Re: Mystery engine
#116514 05/21/07 7:02 pm
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I had a set of unstamped cases and built a '68 Bonnie out of it, stamped the cases to match the frame at the client's direction.

Talk about "anything goes"...


GrandPaul (does not use emoticons)
Author of the book "Old Bikes"
Too many bikes to list, mostly Triumph & Norton, a BSA, & some Japanese
"The Iron in your blood should be Vintage"
Re: Mystery engine
#116515 05/21/07 7:06 pm
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Looks like a '73 or close...

Sure don't know where they got that number from, it looks like a complete bike to me, just not stamped. Perhaps the original engine was blown in the past, so cases had to be swapped.


GrandPaul (does not use emoticons)
Author of the book "Old Bikes"
Too many bikes to list, mostly Triumph & Norton, a BSA, & some Japanese
"The Iron in your blood should be Vintage"
Re: Mystery engine
#116516 05/21/07 7:43 pm
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1972 T 140 with new engines cases after the original build.

Re: Mystery engine
#116517 05/21/07 8:16 pm
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T140?

Re: Mystery engine
#116518 05/21/07 8:28 pm
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I thought in late 72 the engines were bored to 725 cc ,fitted with single flat inspection covers and refered to as T 140 Bonneville

Re: Mystery engine
#116519 05/21/07 8:38 pm
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Well it's definetly not a 64 since it breathes through the primary.
Does it have one head bolt or two between the rocker boxes?


When given the choice between two evils I picked the one I haven't tried before
Re: Mystery engine
#116520 05/21/07 8:47 pm
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My bet, New late model left crankcase.
73 650 top end, 10 bolt casting with 9
hole drill pattern.
T 140 in manifolds, manifolds for the
73 version were bolt to the head,
bolt/nut to the carbs so the air
filter holes lines up with the
carbs.
Cheers Rick

Re: Mystery engine
#116521 05/21/07 9:48 pm
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Note the 12 point nuts on the barrel studs, What year did that end
beerchug

Re: Mystery engine
#116522 05/21/07 11:38 pm
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Mid-season 1972 650's incorporated the designs you see on this engine.Bolt on manifolds, push-in exhaust and the 4 bolt inspection covers on the rocker boxes.

As pointed out, this engine has the later style breather which puts it in the right time frame. Look to see if the case halves match.You will have to look underneath the engine.On each case there will be a three digit number and they will be fairly close to and opposite of each other.

The primary cover is from a 1963-1967. The rest all looks 1972. Do the frame numbers correspond to a 1972?

Also,does it in fact have a five speed? Crazy question, but I don't know if you've rode the bike or had a chance to engage all five gears?

beerchug


Jon W.


1957 6T Thunderbird 650
1968 T100R Daytona 500
1971 TR6R Tiger 650
1970 BSA A65F 650
1955 Tiger 100 - Project
1971 BSA A65 650 - Project
1972 Norton Commando 750 "Combat"


"Every time I listen to AC/DC, so do my neighbors"

Re: Mystery engine
#116523 05/22/07 12:59 am
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Push in exhaust are you sure here
beerchug

Re: Mystery engine
#116524 05/22/07 1:04 am
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T140?
hat do we have here
beerchug

Re: Mystery engine
#116525 05/22/07 2:07 am
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Either that head has been modified to run with the earlier style exhaust stubs, or it using those push in exhaust adapters to use those pipes.Yeah, I'm sure.

beerchug


Posted by triumphguy:
Quote
Push in exhaust are you sure here


Jon W.


1957 6T Thunderbird 650
1968 T100R Daytona 500
1971 TR6R Tiger 650
1970 BSA A65F 650
1955 Tiger 100 - Project
1971 BSA A65 650 - Project
1972 Norton Commando 750 "Combat"


"Every time I listen to AC/DC, so do my neighbors"

Re: Mystery engine
#116526 05/22/07 7:58 am
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Thanks to all for the reply's so far.
I'm in Gods own country until Friday next (Coventry) so cant get at it again until then, when I can check a few more things out re the casting numbers idea and the number of head bolts.
The frame is spot on 1972, April according to the charts I have seen on the net. The stampings are clean and not messed with.
It was advertised as a 4 speed box so I never tried for 5th!! Speed cameras and country lanes prevented a full blown test drive anyway!! Pulls well though.
Jon W, what were the differences to the primary chain case cover that enable you to be so exact with your date of the cover. I'll have dig out book with pictures of 60's Bonnies's to see if I can spot it too.


Dave
Tiger 100SS 1966
T120V 1972
Vincent Comet 1952
Re: Mystery engine
#116527 05/22/07 12:12 pm
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Something else of interest is that front mud guard. Its also not original is it?
Anyone recognise what its off?


Dave
Tiger 100SS 1966
T120V 1972
Vincent Comet 1952
Re: Mystery engine
#116528 05/22/07 12:14 pm
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Quote
Originally posted by DaveT100SS:
what were the differences to the primary chain case cover that enable you to be so exact with your date of the cover. I'll have dig out book with pictures of 60's Bonnies's to see if I can spot it too.
The later covers have an additional inspection plug at the front for strobe timing.


When given the choice between two evils I picked the one I haven't tried before
Re: Mystery engine
#116529 05/22/07 12:21 pm
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"Note the 12 point nuts on the barrel studs, What year did that end"

It ended with the 650 motor, there isn't enough room for them on the outside 4 base studs on the 750.

Seat pull latch on left side from a vary late 72 or very early 73. While this is surely shows some signs of being a "bitsa," I know of some 650 models that were made for the 1973 model year for Canada. What I don't know if the Canadian 1973 650's were fitted with a disc brake making the frame/forks from a late 72.

Re: Mystery engine
#116530 05/22/07 12:33 pm
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DaveT100SS

As far as the primary cover is concerned,starting in 1968 and up through 1974 there was a round three fixing point removable cover where the Triumph logo is and as Shel explained is for access to the rotor for strobe timing. Front mudguard looks to be off of a later model T140.

beerchug


Jon W.


1957 6T Thunderbird 650
1968 T100R Daytona 500
1971 TR6R Tiger 650
1970 BSA A65F 650
1955 Tiger 100 - Project
1971 BSA A65 650 - Project
1972 Norton Commando 750 "Combat"


"Every time I listen to AC/DC, so do my neighbors"

Re: Mystery engine
#116531 05/22/07 12:49 pm
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"Note the 12 point nuts on the barrel studs, What year did that end"

That 's what I'm trying to say . It ended in late 72 . What I believe we have is a late home model 1972 , bored to 725 cc , fitted with a version of the up coming 73 750 head ,and all done by the factory . Referred to as a 72 T140 Bonneville . Just because the cases are not stamped does not mean that it did not come from the factory that way.
I think the bike has the original engine.
beerchug

Re: Mystery engine
#116532 05/22/07 2:08 pm
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All Triumphs had matching engine frame numbers begining in the early 50's. No execptions. This bike has replacement cases. Late 1972 650 with T140 intake manifolds and airbox. Of course the 650 motor is taller than the 750, thats why the airbox and carbs do not line up. If you look at the head it is cast for 10 bolts but drilled for 9 just as the highway posted. The manifols on a 72 are machined to angle down a bit to line up with the airbox. This bike also has the pull knob on the left side for the seat latch. This would be a lower frame than the 71/early72.

Re: Mystery engine
#116533 05/22/07 3:39 pm
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No Triumphguy, it ended with the last 650 in 1973. Yes, they did make 650 in 1973, but I believe they were fitted with disc brakes like their 750 cousins of the year.
Bikes DID NOT leave the factory without engine numbers!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I don't think these are new cases at all, but ones that someone has altered. All of the engine cases in my possesion do not have the serifs on the "T." I would be interested if any one else has an engine case stamped with the "Triumph" logo that has the serifs on the "T."

Also all of the cases I have do not have the Triumph placed in a random pattern. They are all equally spaced and LEVEL.
I would be very interested in seeing the gasket cylinder base gasket surface just above the number pad.

Re: Mystery engine
#116534 05/22/07 4:42 pm
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Ok Sincerey I convinced ,no bikes left that were not stamped.
beerchug

Re: Mystery engine
#116535 05/22/07 4:51 pm
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The numbers of the matching case halves, on the bottom of the sump will probably prove that the DS engine case is new. If matching, then the serial number has been artfully machined off... which is more common than one would think.


Don't hide 'em, Ride 'em !!

RF Whatley
Cornelia, GA
Re: Mystery engine
#116536 05/22/07 10:09 pm
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I count 8 cylinder fins.
That means it's a long rod engine.
T120, 650CC

AFIK there is no T140 with 8 fins.


Stop the insanity.
Re: Mystery engine
#116537 05/22/07 10:30 pm
Anonymous
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Anonymous
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bored to 725 cc

What???

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